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February 2006

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Subject:
From:
Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:
Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date:
Thu, 23 Feb 2006 17:44:45 -0500
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Actually the durative meaning is not required by the verb but is a result of the presence of the preposition "for".    The "for" brings a durative sense of course but this is the nature of the preposition and has nothing to do with the verb. In fact I have seen books discuss "for-adverbs" where any durative adverb such as briefly, temporarily, long, short, as well as the noun-like adverbs two weeks, two years, and so forth are included as large complex adverb when they occur with for.  Perhaps the best solution then is just to note that the fore adverb class also includes complex comparative constructions as in the original example, "John worked for as long as he liked" where we take the entirety of "for as long as he liked" as 

That being said, I am not completely on board with the solution as I find the following acceptable and unnacceptable as marked.  

John worked as short as he liked
*John worked for as short as he liked
John worked as briefly as he liked
*John worked for as briefly as he liked.  

I also think you'd be quite in the minority accepting "John worked for a short as he could", but it is unlikely that anyone would accept "John worked for as hard as he could".  I think the uniqueness of the original sentence and the lack of parallels above marks it as exceptional or slangy rather than rule based.  


Phil Bralich

-----Original Message-----
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Feb 23, 2006 4:36 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: "work for" plus adverb clause
>
>Phil,
>
>The second, with "happily", is blocked because of the durative meaning
>required with this sense of "work". Actually, I like "John worked for as
>short as he could" better than without the "for."  I'm not sure I'd use
>either in formal writing, but in speech they're fine.
>
>Herb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil Bralich
>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:59 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: "work for" plus adverb clause
>
>Herb,
>
>Either of the two solutions you suggest are still hamstrung by the fact
>that in either of those cases "for" requires a noun object and thus the
>comparative phrase in the example is striking.  For example you cannot
>say, "John worked for as short as he could" or "for as happilly as he
>could."  If what you say is correct, those should be equally allowed.  
>
>Phil Bralich
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Feb 23, 2006 12:19 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: "work for" plus adverb clause
>>
>>Kathleen,
>>
>>I think this is a case where the language allows alternative
>>complementation to "work".  The "for" here may be by analogy either to
>>the benefactive "for", as in "He worked for his sister", or to the
>>durational "for" as in "he talked for two hours."  But the verb "work"
>>allows either a bare time adverb, like "he worked two hours" or the
>>temporal prepositional phrase "he worked for two hours."  You don't
>have
>>to call it an idiom.  They're simply alternative structures.
>>
>>Herb
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kathleen M. Ward
>>Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 2:54 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: "work for" plus adverb clause
>>
>>One of my students asked me what to do with the following sentence:
>>
>>	He worked for as long as he could.
>>
>>Now, "as long as he could" is, I think pretty clearly an adverbial 
>>phrase, containing in itself a comparative clause with deletions.  The 
>>question is, what do you do with the "for"?  I understand that it can 
>>be omitted--and then the analysis is easier.  But I would not want to 
>>say that an adverbial phrase can be a complement/object of a 
>>preposition.  Is "for" a preposition here?  Is it a particle? Do I just
>
>>throw up my hands and call it an idiom?
>>
>>How do other people see this?
>>
>>Kathleen Ward
>>UC Davis
>>
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>
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