I could diagram it as a complex sentence with an understood subject and an
understood verb (present tense of 'to be'); however, that proposal may be a
questionable as "Ouch." That sentence has an understood subject and
predicate.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
There are 9 messages totalling 915 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Independent clause or noun phrase (8)
2. Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 05:35:31 -0800
From: Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:03:45 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
That would be my take on it. It's contains a relative clause with no subo=
rdinator. Because the sentence sounds as if it comes from an ad, it uses t=
he sort of elliptical language common to ads and leaves out, as you point o=
ut, "It is" or "This is."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Lavitt
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.=20
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your c=
ollective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The=
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is a=
n implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an ind=
ependent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,=20
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:25:32 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486
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"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
"The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is
an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486
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"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it=
is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a n=
ull (unstated) relative pronoun.<br><br>I'd like to hear more from ATEG=
ers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative on=
ly in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill bru=
sh" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."<br=
>
<br>Dick<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM,=
Scott Lavitt <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">c=
[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding-left: 1ex;">
Happy holidays all.<br>
<br>
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek yo=
ur collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:<br>
<br>
The last grill brush you will ever need.<br>
<br>
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj=
. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem=
right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a nou=
n phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?<br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
<br>
Scott Lavitt<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:<br>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>
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<p>
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--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 13:21:37 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_
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Is "last" acting like a negative polarity item?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you =
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronou=
n.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs =
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need=
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ci=
[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your c=
ollective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The=
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is a=
n implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an ind=
ependent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Is &=
#8220;last” acting like a negative polarity item?<o:p></o:p></span></=
b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></b></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#=
1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'=
font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span s=
tyle=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for t=
he Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Beha=
lf Of </b>Dick Veit<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM<br>=
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Independent clau=
se or noun phrase<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>"The last gr=
ill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The &q=
uot;you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) re=
lative pronoun.<br><br>I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever.=
" Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clause=
s like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not=
*"You will ever need a grill brush."<br><br>Dick<o:p></o:p></p><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <=
<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Happy holidays all.<br><br>I've been a memb=
er of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinio=
n. Question: how does one parse the following?:<br><br>The last grill brush=
you will ever need.<br><br>I could see this as an independent clause, with=
"you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the D=
O, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is,"=
; making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. =
Thoughts?<br><br>Thank you,<br><br>Scott Lavitt<br><br>To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br> =
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank=
">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select "Joi=
n or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http:/=
/ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
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Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></body>=
</html>=
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:18:59 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* =
they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when =
he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known =
this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I =
don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking =
of any examples in a main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are =
candidate expressions "He was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was =
ever thus." I suspect a lot of people would count those as fossilized, =
though.=20
--- Bill Spruiell=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick =
Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
=20
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The =
"you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it =
occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever =
need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek =
your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and =
"The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there =
is an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:29:36 -0600
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_SW_1952131558_1293143376_mpa=
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How about "ever" in a question?
Did he ever think of the answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
> Dick,
>
> It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I
> *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I
> wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would
> have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on
> this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having
> trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound
> archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the
> optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people
> would count those as fossilized, though.
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick
> Veit
> Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
> "you
> will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
> pronoun.
>
> I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it
> occurs
> without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever
> need
> a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
>
> Dick
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your
>> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The
>> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there
>> is an
>> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
>> independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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How about "ever" in a question? <div>Did he ever think of the
answer?<=
/div><div><br></div><div>tj<br _moz_editor_bogus_node=3d"TRUE"
_moz_dirty=3d=
""><br><br><div id=3d"editor_signature"></div>On Thursday 12/23/2010 at
3:25=
pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote: <blockquote
type=3d"cite">Dick,<br><br>I=
t shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they
=
all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll
eve=
r finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I
recal=
l Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy
(c=
offee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a
main=
clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He
wa=
s ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of
pe=
ople would count those as fossilized, though. <br><br>--- Bill Spruiell
<br>=
<br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English=
Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit<br>Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM<br>To:
ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<br>Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase<br>
<b=
r>"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
"you=
<br>will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated)
relative<br>=
pronoun.<br><br>I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong
=
that it occurs<br>without a negative only in relative clauses like this?
"Yo=
u won't ever need<br>a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a
=
grill brush."<br><br>Dick<br><br>On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott
Lavi=
tt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3d"cite">
Happy=
holidays all.<br><br> I've been a member of this listserve for years and
oc=
casionally seek your<br> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse
th=
e following?:<br><br> The last grill brush you will ever need.<br><br> I
cou=
ld see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The<br>
l=
ast grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is
an<b=
r> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not
an<br>=
independent clause. Thoughts?<br><br> Thank you,<br><br> Scott
Lavitt<br><b=
r> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interfac=
e<br> at:<br> <a target=3d"_blank"
href=3d=
"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/a
=
rchives/ateg.html</a><br> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br> Visit
=
ATEG's web site at <a target=3d"_blank"
href=3d"http://ateg.org/">http://ate=
g.org/</a><br><br></blockquote><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
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------=_SW_1952131558_1293143376_mpa=--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:34:29 -0600
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
"It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
brush that has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of "will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
differently than, say, "ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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The last grill brush you will ever need.<div><br></div><div>Is this a
senten=
ce at all? To assume an understood "This is" or</div><div>"It is"
won'=
t account for it as they have very different meaning</div><div>possible
refe=
rences. One almost demands that the brush be</div><div>in the
vicinity=
for reference. The other might well reference a</div><div>brush that
=
has yet to be created.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd take "ever" as a simple
=
adverb with the caveat that it must</div><div>precede the verb it
modi=
fies. Perhaps it also needs something such</div><div>as "will" in
fron=
t of it.</div><div><br></div><div>The understood "that" not stated in the
cl=
ause is a relative pronoun</div><div>that serves as the direct object of
"wi=
ll need."</div><div><br></div><div>Is "last" anything more than a simple
adj=
ective? Does it function any</div><div>differently than, say,
"ultimat=
e"?</div><div><br></div><div>tj<br _moz_editor_bogus_node=3d"TRUE"
_moz_dirt=
y=3d""><br><br><div id=3d"editor_signature"></div>On Thursday 12/23/2010 at
=
7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote: <blockquote type=3d"cite">Happy holidays
all.=
<br><br>I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
see=
k your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
following?:<br><=
br>The last grill brush you will ever need.<br><br>I could see this as an
in=
dependent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the
=
DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making
t=
he above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause.
Thoughts?<b=
r><br>Thank you, <br><br>Scott Lavitt<br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV
=
list, please visit the list's web interface
at:<br> &=
nbsp; <a target=3d"_blank"
href=3d"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/a=
teg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>and select
"J=
oin or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a target=3d"_blank"
=
href=3d"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><br></blockquote><br></div>
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------=_SW_1352010998_1293143669_mpa=--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:08:08 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is an
option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
> "It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
> in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
> brush that has yet to be created.
>
> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
> as "will" in front of it.
>
> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
> differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
>> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
>> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 18:26:22 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of pleasant and =0Ain=
teresting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do it. He doesn't=
=0Aknow what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do it,=A0Eduard,=A0d=
o it. Don't =0Arant at me. Just do it.)=0A=A0=0AI then asked him to ask eac=
h person in one of his classes=A0to send me a =0Adefinition, without him ex=
plaining what it is. I don't want to read 30 =0Avariations on what he tells=
them. Make it open book. Let them look it up if they =0Awant.=0A=A0=0AHe w=
on't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and=A0he drops=A0Quirk'=
s =0Aname as a smoke screen but=A0Quirk won't help him. How's that for a de=
finitive =0Astatement?=A0Quirk won't help.=0A=A0=0APlease prove me wrong, E=
duard. Maybe the others will help you. Who has Quirk =0Ahandy?=0A=A0=0A.bra=
d.23dec10.=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Eduard Hanganu =
<[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask]: Wed, Decem=
ber 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM=0ASubject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challen=
ge=0A=0A=0ABrad,=0A=0AThis is my example:=0A=0A"I HAD BEEN=A0READING=A0[ Pa=
st Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect] your rumblings for =0Atoo long before =
I DECIDED=A0 [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ] that=A0they were=A0not =0Aworth=
my time."=0A=0AThis is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense =
(Aspect)=A0and of the =0A(Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis.=A0S=
ee Quirk et al. in "A =0AComprehensive Grammar of the English Language," an=
d Comrie in "Aspect."=A0 =0A=0A=0A=0AEduard =0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--0-1377937128-1293157582=:99799
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
2pt"><DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Eduard is pe=
evish because I asked him, after a number of pleasant and interesting excha=
nges, to define the past perfect. He can't do it. He doesn't know what it i=
s. That makes him cross. (If you can do it, Eduard, do it. Don't =
rant at me. Just do it.)</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, h=
elvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times =
new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-F=
AMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 18pt">=0A<DIV><F=
ONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT></DIV>=0A<D=
IV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">I then asked him to=
ask each person in one of his classes to send me a definition, withou=
t him explaining what it is. I don't want to read 30 variations on what he =
tells them. Make it open book. Let them look it up if they want.</FONT></DI=
V>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT=
></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">He won'=
t do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he drops Qui=
rk's name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for a=
definitive statement? Quirk won't help.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT siz=
e=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FON=
T size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Please prove me wrong, Edu=
ard. Maybe the others will help you. Who has Quirk handy?</FONT></DIV>=0A<D=
IV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT> </DIV>=
=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">.brad.23dec10.=
</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new ro=
man, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 18pt">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:=
times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 f=
ace=3DTahoma>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:<=
/SPAN></B> Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35=
AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Bruce D=
espain, Mastering the Challenge<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<DIV>Brad,</DIV>=0A<DIV>&n=
bsp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>This is my example:</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>"I H=
AD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect] your rum=
blings for too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ] t=
hat they were not worth my time."</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DI=
V>This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense (Aspect) =
and of the (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et=
al. in "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in "A=
spect." </DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Eduard =
<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></div><br>=0A=0A </body></=
html>
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
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