Craig,
Thanks for the plug. I'll be happy to forward the article to Brad and
to anyone else who will send me their email address.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: 2008-02-14 12:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Brad's thoughts on the Flawed Survey
Brad,
Any teacher who called any of these choices correct or incorrect (or
even preferable) without discussing context would be doing damage. There
are nuances of meaning conveyed by what grammarians call "aspect". Both
"hear" and "have heard" are present tense, as is "are hearing." Their
appropriateness depends on context. If my wife asks, "Have you taken out
the garbage," she doesn't mean "last week." If I say "I am doing it
now," I'm probably trying to get off the hook by saying it's in
progress.
The best coverage of this I have seen (very clear and thoughtful) is
an article Herb wrote for a past issue of the ATEG Journal (When it was
still Syntax in the Schools.) Maybe he would make it available to us,
though we can't do attachments through the list.
Traditional school grammar explains it badly. As has been pointed out
(present, plus perfect, plus passive), context matters enormously.
Craig
Brad Johnston wrote:
> * %*
>
> *( 16 ) They _are_ amazed. They _never_ _heard_ of this song.*
> *( 82 ) They _are_ amazed. They _have_ _never_ _heard_ of this
song.*
> *( 6 ) They _were_ amazed. They _never_ _heard_ of this song.*
> *( 93 ) They _were_ amazed. They _had_ _never_ _heard_ of this
song.*
> **
> *( 45 ) John _is_ upset because his application _was_ turned down.*
> *( 55 ) John _is_ upset because his application _has_ _been_ turned
> down.*
> *( 37 ) John _was_ upset because his application _was_ turned
down.*
> *( 64 ) John _was_ upset because his application _had_ _been_
> turned down.*
> **
> *Brad's conclusions:*
> **
> *1.) Damned interesting because of the diversity of answers to
> uncomplicated examples. They are short, unambiguous, and probably
> constitute the simplest quiz any of us have seen since the 4th grade,
> yet look at how much disagreement there is among professional
> grammarians, including this morning's complaint from Herb. *
> ****
> *2.) Look at the four sentences about John. We are 45-55 and 37-64.
> With that much disagreement among professionals, is it any wonder that
> students are confused? I think we need to consider carefully what this
> demonstrates.*
> **
> *3.) In the set on top, the 82 will want to explain to the 16 why the
> straightforward "they never heard" is less effective than to say,
> "they have never heard". I need to know, too.*
> **
> *4.) You wouldn't let me continue long enough to get definition
> on what is demonstrated next. The 82 (with the help of 11 of the 16)
> jumped to the conclusion that the past perfect is the past of the
> present perfect. It can be demonstrated why this is not true but we
> have all heard it so often that we just feel in our bones that 'had'
> belongs in front of "never heard".*
> **
> *5.) The same can be said of John 55 going for John 64. Once they
> decided that his application "has been turned down" instead of the
> straightforward "was turned down", it is an easy leap to John 64 (with
> the help of 9 from John 45) to say ... well, you see what it says in
> John 64.*
> **
> *6.) Convoluted theories and arcane presumptions aside, 45 and 37
> have it right: "is and was" and "was and was" don't need any help.
> They work well just as they are.*
> **
> *7.) So, 82 and 55, please tell us why you want to use the present
> perfect. Then tell us why you jumped to 93 and 64. Just because it
> _sounds_ right? Stand on any street corner and listen. That's what
> you'll hear. (Is that too tough? O.K., strike that last comment
> starting with "Stand on any corner". I withdraw that, without
> prejudice I hope.)*
> **
> *8.) **Back to you. I'm going to ponder #8 for a time.*
> **
> *.brad.14feb08.*
> **
> *Hey, Gram, is this interesting and constructive enough for you? You
> better duck because rocks and bottles are going to be flying, some of
> them at you, just for being so snotty.*
>
> This list is a forum for people who are actually interested in
> learning about grammar and language, not a dumping site for the
> ravings of an apparent lunatic.
>
>
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