Paul, DD, Peter, et al.
   Perhaps the practice can be better defended with sentence ending
prepositions that aren't redundant and seem OK, even strong.
   "What is it listed under?"
   "She left with the guy she came with."
   "It's not worth the paper it's printed on."
It's interesting that the alternatives often require extra words and add a
feeling of stuffiness.
   "Under what is it listed?"
   "She left with the guy with whom she came."
   "It's not worth the paper on which it is printed."
Of the three "corrected" versions, none seem an improvement and the second
and third seem much worse.

Craig>

 DD,
>
> Okay, point taken. perhaps I should have said that the 'at' is
> unnecessarily redundant?
>
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 5:45:02 PM
> Subject: Redundancy
>
>
> At 12:07 PM 7/21/2006, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
>>Of course that sentence needs revision, and of course the student
>>who wrote it needs to be taught that it is in error. One could start
>>by trying to show that the word 'at' is redundant and therefore
>>unnecessary. . . .
>
> DD: A fair amount of redundancy is needed for effective
> communication. See any work on communication theory. Shannon at the
> Bell Labs is a good start. As a receiver getting progressively deaf,
> I will vouch for that. I look at eyes, body gestures, and appreciate
> the inherent redundancies in every day high standard English. I have
> noticed that tilting my head and squinting often gets me a
> re-transmission in a redundant but different text message. The
> important thing is to get the info in the message across. The same
> thing when I address students. I watch their eyes and body reactions.
> If I get Round eyes, I rephrase and try again. But the understanding
> of the format (Grammar) the message is being transmitted in helps a lot.
>
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