Pot, meet kettle. Everyone else on the list agrees with Eduard. For my
money, the real arrogance is in thinking that you are the only one who
knows the truth about the perfect.
Further, my discussion about the perfect with you was off the list, and
you have just misrepresented what I told you in private to the entire list.
For the record, I gave you a definition, and then I corrected your
imprecise paraphrase of my definition. I did not back away from it.
I should have known that you were too stupid to understand the distinction.
Also, I stand by my use of the perfect in my last message to the list.
It's Standard English, and the only thing you demonstrate by trying to
ridicule it is your complete ineptitude as a judge of English grammar.
Once again you have demonstrated why you deserve to be shunned, and I
deeply regret my folly in writing to you.
This will be my last message to you. I am adding you back to my idiot
filter.
On 12/6/2010 4:13 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
> *From:* Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Mon, December 6, 2010 5:23:56 PM
> *Subject:* Re: common irregular verbs
> Brad,
> >> What is clear from all your posts is that you don't understand tenses.
> Only _you_ understand, is that it? A bit arrogant, me thinks, but no
> matter. I've been called worse. It's hell to be ignorant but I'll suffer
> through it.
> >> The Past Perfect is not unique to English
> How is this relevant to your message? Do you want to discuss it in
> Bantu? I'm game if you are.
> >> and it has a definite function on the time axis
> AMEN to that. If only everyone could see that IT HAS A DEFINITE FUNCTION
> on the time axis.
> >> that cannot be reduced to the function of the Past Tense.
> I wonder what this means. "reduced to the function of the Past Tense".
> Who wants it to be?
> >> In your redundant examples of "wrong usage" of "had", you fail to
> provide evidence that the Simple Past can perform the same function the
> Past Perfect performs.
> It can't (see AMEN above). I don't say it can. I never said it could.
> Whatever are you talking about? Sleep on it and let's talk in the morning.
> But before you go, write back and tell me what this sentence means. "I
> thought this was a private message from Brad, and didn't realize he sent
> it to everyone."
> Your explanation: ___________________________________________
> And then tell me what this sentence means. "I had thought this was a
> private message from Brad, and didn't realize he had sent it to everyone."
> Your explanation: ___________________________________________
> Don't BS me, just tell me what each one means.
> And then, still before you go, tell me, what is the past perfect? You
> seem to know a lot about it so tell me, what is it?
> If you can tell me, you will do what _no_ _one_ _else_ at ATEG has been
> able to do. Herb can't define it, Craig can't define it, and lots of
> others can't define it. Within the last few days, I wrestled a
> definition out of Karl but then he backed away and said that wasn't it
> after all. So, to date, NO ONE at ATEG has been able to define and
> explain and illustrate the past perfect, which is what most folks,
> laymen all, call the past perfect tense. Call it whatever you like --
> past tense perfect aspect, whatever -- just tell me what it is.
> Good luck, Eduard. You asked for it.
> .brad.06dec10.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, December 6, 2010 12:24
> Subject: Re: common irregular verbs
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Sorry to the list for feeding the trolls. I (had thought) thought this
> was a private message from Brad, and didn't realize he (had sent) sent
> it to everyone.
>
> ~~~~~
>
> THIS is why I persist. People, even ATEG people, DO put 'had' in front
> of past tense verbs.
>
> It's an inch deep but a mile wide. It's everywhere. As long as learned
> ATEG professionals persist, unwittingly, I shall persist as well.
>
> "feeding the trolls", Karl? Et tu, Brute?
>
> I should thank you, Brute, for proving my point so splendidly. Yes.
> Thank you. I hope some of the others are paying attention.
>
> .brad.06dec10.
> ________________________________
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 12:47:40 PM
> Subject: Re: common irregular verbs
>
> Sorry to the list for feeding the trolls. I had thought this was a
> private message from Brad, and didn't realize he had sent it to everyone.
> On 12/6/2010 9:37 AM, Karl Hagen wrote:
> While it is true that there's a lot of mindless copying among grammar
> books, that's not the issue here. Neither is the complexity of
> Huddleston and the others. Huddleston and Pullum is a reference grammar.
> It is not intended for children, so there's no reason for them to simplify.
>
> Anyway, complaining about the problems that grammar books for school
> children have is a red herring. You still need to show that there's
> something wrong with the technical understanding of the perfect in
> standard grammar references like Huddleston and Pullum. Then we can talk
> about how to present it to children.
>
> And no, there is nothing the matter with the paradigms you quoted. They
> are correct, no matter what you say. Find me a book that says otherwise.
> Until you can, your opinion has no weight. It's your bald assertion
> against the entire weight of all the grammatical authorities.
>
> On 12/5/2010 7:38 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
> You sent this back to me without comment. It reflects much of what's
> wrong with <many> most grammar texts. Much of grammar text content is
> mindless, careless repetition of things that don't make sense, as this
> one demonstrates. There's a lot of plagiarism in the grammar trade. One
> grammar text author told me what he wrote had to be right because he
> copied it from another text. I believe him because he lifted things from
> me, word for word -- things he clearly doesn't understand but used anyway.
> Some Common Irregular Verbs, page 37.
>
> Past begin choose drink eat grow hide
> Present began chose drank ate grew hid
> Past Participle begun chosen drunk eaten grown hidden
> There's a little something the matter with them, don't you think? Look
> carefully or you'll miss it.
> There's a LOT the matter with them and you DID miss it.
> Is it any wonder kids hate grammar when so much of it either doesn't
> make sense, like what you see above, or is presented in a way that is
> unnecessarily convoluted and complicated, e.g, Huddleston, Wardhaugh, et al?
> brad.05dec10.
>
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>
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>
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