Untimed tests are discriminatory
against the fast thinking student;
timed tests favor the slow thinkers.
After I finished one Freshman semester
exam in 15 minutes, I commented that
in the remaining 2'45" students might
end up doing as well as I did--even
though I knew a lot more.
My solution was to give power test
that no one could finish but that
everyone could do his best.
Grades were always in the curve;
however, I eliminated the top score
or scores if they were significantly
higher than other A quality scores.
I specialized in multiple choice
questions that required much thought.
Harder to word; easier to grade.
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 28 Nov 2008 to 29 Nov 2008 (#2008-249)
There are 5 messages totalling 1283 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Experimental design help
2. Norman Mailer (2)
3. Exhibit #90+ - Schatz Grammar Rules (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 00:20:17 -0600
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Experimental design help
At 08:39 PM 11/28/2008, Scott Woods wrote: . . .
> I don't think my students are as smart as their scores indicate, .
> . . I expect that students whose reading percentile scores are
> lower will present a greater difference between the control and
> experimental conditions.
DD: Interesting thought. I would expect the higher to profit more.
Two tail test, then. Null Hypothesis no difference between the two
groups. However the more interesting item is if the two techniques
prove different in results, pre experiment and post.
> This seemed to be the case for the previous test, based on raw
> scores. If such a difference is more pronounced in a timed
> situation, that would seem to validate the experimental condition
> as improving how well students understand text. (Anecdotally, the
> overwhelming majority of my students report that it is extremely helpful).
DD: No, it merely indicates the different result from timed test and
non timed. Either would indicate the probability of the truth of the
hypothesis. If both types of test are statistically significant, BRAG.
>
>An additional experiment would test the influence of extensive
>practice in reading graphic syntax on reading skill. This
>experiment would compare the results of a second test with changes
>in reading skill as measured on a standardized test.
DD: Pre test, post test with both your test and the standardized one,
and be sure to have that control group that doesn't get the special
graphic syntax training. Great idea. Ignore the ethical problem of
not providing the control group with what you feel would help them the most.
> My prediction is that after a year of reading difficult material
> in graphic syntax, as well as difficult material in normal text,
> reading scores would go up (this would not be a surprising or
> revealing result) and the difference between experimental and
> control performance for lower performers whose performance improved
> would become similar to that of higher performers in the first test
> (this would be important). I expect that if good readers are good
> readers partially because they understand syntactic connections
> better, and consequently are less aided by graphic syntax, then
> improving student understanding of syntactic connections by
> extensive practice with graphic syntax should improve their reading
> comprehension.
DD: Tricky, but some good testable hypotheses there. You are on a
worthy track.
>By showing a strong correlation between standardized reading
>comprehension scores and the difference between scores on graphic
>and normal text, I should be able to isolate the factor of graphic
>syntax from all the other excellent things I do in the classroom and
>show that reading in graphic syntax format can improve reading
comprehension.
> Does this make sense? Is it sound?
DD: Looks firm to me. Now do it and put it to the empirical test. Does it
work?
>Is there another way to show that reading skill can be improved by
>this method?
>
DD: Probably, but I like what you propose. However don't use the
phrase, "...show that reading skill can be improved by this method."
Use, "...test the hypothesis that reading skill can be improved by
this method." The words, 'Show' and 'Prove' are trigger words to
incite criticism from Scientific Methodologists. Not unlike confusion
between 'reliability' and 'validity' do to statisticians. Keep up the
good work!
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:28:15 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Norman Mailer
--0-2061229144-1227968895=:11065
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Marshall.
=A0
I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone suggested off-list). When one se=
es the word 'had', there are only four possibilities.
=A0
It's the past tense of the verb "to have".
It's used in the past perfect.
It's used in the subjunctive.
It's in error.
=A0
Mailer uses it in all=A0four ways. The ones in the last category, 54 of 98 =
in his case, I called "in error".
=A0
If there is another possibility, I would certainly like to know what it is.
=A0
.brad.29nov08.=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~
On=A011/19/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Marshall,
=A0
I have wrecked my brain but=A0have not yet thought of a valid reason why 'h=
ad' should appear other than in the three circumstances=A0mentioned. Have y=
ou a suggestion?
=A0
.brad.20nov08.
=A0
~~~~~~~~~~~
On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Brad,=20
=A0=20
How are they in =93error=94?=20
=A0=20
Marshall=20
=A0=20
~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=20
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer=20
=A0=20
Of 300+ ATEGians,=A0some few=A0will be interested to know=A0that in the fir=
st 21 pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Puli=
tzer in 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correct=
ly as the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in t=
he subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.=0A=0A=0A
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--0-2061229144-1227968895=:11065
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV id=3Dyiv1925762730>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1316622210>
<DIV>Marshall.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone suggested off-list). When o=
ne sees the word 'had', there are only four possibilities.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It's the past tense of the verb "to have".</DIV>
<DIV>It's used in the past perfect.</DIV>
<DIV>It's used in the subjunctive.</DIV>
<DIV>It's in error.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mailer uses it in all four ways. The ones in the last category, 5=
4 of 98 in his case, I called "in error".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>If there is another possibility, I would certainly like to know what i=
t is.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>.brad.29nov08. </DIV>
<DIV><BR><STRONG><FONT face=3DVerdana>~~~~~~~~~~~</FONT></STRONG><BR><BR>On=
<B>11/19/08, Brad Johnston <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wr=
ote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1476922159>
<TABLE cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV id=3Dyiv2051713300>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Marshall,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have wrecked my brain but have not yet thought o=
f a valid reason why 'had' should appear other than in the three circumstan=
ces mentioned. Have you a suggestion?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>.brad.20nov08.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><STRONG>~=
~~~~~~~~~~<BR></STRONG></FONT><BR>On <B>Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <I>&=
lt;[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2> </FONT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Brad,</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D=
2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">How are they in =93error=94?</SP=
AN></FONT><FONT size=3D2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Marshall</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SI=
ZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2> </FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT fa=
ce=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FO=
NT></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bol=
d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT face=3DVerdana>~~~~~~~~~~~</=
FONT></SPAN></FONT></B></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV><B><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><FONT face=3DVerdana><=
/FONT></SPAN></FONT></B>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV><B><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"></SPAN></FONT></B>
<DIV><B><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10=
pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR></DIV></DIV></SPAN></FONT></B>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bol=
d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=
=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> Assembly fo=
r the Teaching of English Grammar</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FO=
NT-FAMILY: Tahoma"><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN=
></B>Brad Johnston<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>=
Tuesday, November 18, 2008<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SP=
AN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Su=
bject:</SPAN></B> Norman Mailer</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2> </FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-se=
rif"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> </SPAN></FONT> </FONT>
<DIV>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PA=
DDING-TOP: 0in" vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1369941323>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif" size=3D2><=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be=
interested to know that in the first 21 pages of "The Executioner's S=
ong", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the word 'had' appear=
s 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past tense of the verb "t=
o have", or in the past perfect, or in the subjunctive. The rest (54) are i=
n error.</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></T=
D></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV></DIV></DIV></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A
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<p>
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--0-2061229144-1227968895=:11065--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:10:37 -0600
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Exhibit #90+ - Schatz Grammar Rules
I know I should not do this, but when a person claims great knowledge of =
grammar, it might be time to point out a rather egregious error.
Brad, our expert on "correct" English writes:
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense verbs, as those =
words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had' does not belong in =
front of past tense verbs.
One of the properties of English is that the past tense form and past =
participle form of many verbs are the same. Let's consider why this must =
be the case.
Clearly wrote and write are not the same form of the verb write in 1 and =
2.
1) Brad wrote a post.
2 Brad has written a post.
Notice what happens when "not" is inserted.
3) Brad did not write a post.
4) Brad has not written a post.
"not" goes in front of the tense verb in both. If there is not a helping =
verb, in other words, the past tense form is the only tensed verb, then we =
need a form of do. =20
The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular =
verbs in English, is the same.
5) Brad washed the dishes. =20
6) Brad has washed the dishes.
Insert not in 5 and 6.
7) Brad did not wash the dishes.
8) Brad has not washed the dishes.
Because sentences 7 and 8 pattern the same way as 3 and 4, it seems much =
easier to assume that wash, like write, has two different forms: a past =
tense form and a past participle. It just so happens that these two forms =
for wash, unlike write, are the same.
If we don't like that solution, then we have to tell a completely =
different story for write as opposed to wash.
By the way, if you want to tell a completely different story for wash, =
then what kind of story do you have to tell for put (or cut or hit)?
9) You now put the dishes away.
10) You put the dishes away yesterday.
11) You have put the dishes away.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
****
For someone so sure about what is correct and incorrect, it more than a =
little surprising that he cannot keep straight the difference between =
past tense form of a verb and the past participle form of the verb.
>>> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07 PM >>>
Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
=20
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
=20
Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish =
he (had) caught in the river.
=20
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
=20
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.
=20
Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
=20
page 172 - Correct the errors.
=20
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a =
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=20
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused a =
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=20
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense verbs, as those =
words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had' does not belong in =
front of past tense verbs.
=20
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past =
perfect error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.
=20
.brad.28nov08.
=20
P.S. Under Misplaced Modifiers she lists, "We need someone to care for =
Bessie, our cow, who does not smoke or drink". Isn't that epic?
=20
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:05:25 -0500
From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Norman Mailer
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF33B08CAFSEMAILfacult_
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Brad,
I don't think you understand the nature of the tenses, what they signify in=
terms of time, and how that time is represented.
I'd be happy to work with you on that, if you'll come by my office.
Best wishes,
Dr. Marshall Myers
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2008 9:28 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Norman Mailer
Marshall.
I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone suggested off-list). When one se=
es the word 'had', there are only four possibilities.
It's the past tense of the verb "to have".
It's used in the past perfect.
It's used in the subjunctive.
It's in error.
Mailer uses it in all four ways. The ones in the last category, 54 of 98 in=
his case, I called "in error".
If there is another possibility, I would certainly like to know what it is.
.brad.29nov08.
~~~~~~~~~~~
On 11/19/08, Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Marshall,
I have wrecked my brain but have not yet thought of a valid reason why 'had=
' should appear other than in the three circumstances mentioned. Have you a=
suggestion?
.brad.20nov08.
~~~~~~~~~~~
On Tue, 11/18/08, Myers, Marshall <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Brad,
How are they in "error"?
Marshall
~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2008
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Norman Mailer
Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be interested to know that in the first 21 =
pages of "The Executioner's Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer i=
n 1980, the word 'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as =
the past tense of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the sub=
junctive. The rest (54) are in error.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brad,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I don’t think you understand the=
nature of
the tenses, what they signify in terms of time, and how that time is
represented.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I’d be happy to work with you on=
that, if
you’ll come by my office.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dr. Marshall Myers<o:p></o:p></span></=
font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=
=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><font siz=
e=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>
<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:Per=
sonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On Be=
half
Of </span></b>Brad Johnston<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Saturday, November 29,=
2008
9:28 AM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]
<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Norman Mailer</=
span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font s=
ize=3D3
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Marshall</spa=
n></font></st1:place></st1:City>.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I wasn't being cheeky with you (as someone sug=
gested
off-list). When one sees the word 'had', there are only four possibilitie=
s.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>It's the past tense of the verb "to have&=
quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>It's used in the past perfect.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>It's used in the subjunctive.<o:p></o:p></span=
></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>It's in error.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Mailer uses it in all four ways. The ones=
in
the last category, 54 of 98 in his case, I called "in error".<o=
:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>If there is another possibility, I would certa=
inly
like to know what it is.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>.brad.29nov08. <o:p></o:p></span></font><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><br>
</span></font><strong><b><font face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-family:=
Verdana'>~~~~~~~~~~~</span></font></b></strong><br>
<br>
On <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>11/19/08, Brad Johnston <i><s=
pan
style=3D'font-style:italic'><[log in to unmask]></span></i></span=
></b>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=3Dyiv2051713300>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font=
size=3D2
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Marshall</s=
pan></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>I have wrecked my brain but have not ye=
t
thought of a valid reason why 'had' should appear other than in the thr=
ee
circumstances mentioned. Have you a suggestion?</span></font><o:p>=
</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>.brad.20nov08.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><strong><b><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>~~~~~~~~~~~</span></font=
></b></strong><b><font
size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Ver=
dana;
font-weight:bold'><br>
</span></font></b><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'><br>
On <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Tue, 11/18/08, <st1:PersonName w=
:st=3D"on">Myers,
<st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on">Marshall</st1:place></st1=
:City></st1:PersonName>
<i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'><[log in to unmask]></sp=
an></i></span></b>
wrote:</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Brad,</span></font><font size=3D2><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font size=3D2><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'>How are they in “error”?</spa=
n></font><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font size=3D2><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><st1:City w:st=3D"on"><st1:place w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D2 color=
=3Dnavy
face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:=
navy'>Marshall</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial;color:navy'> </span></font><font size=3D2><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DVerdana><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold'>~~~~~~~~~~~</span></font></b><o:p=
></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><b><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:12.0pt;
font-weight:bold'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></b></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:
Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=3D2 face=3DT=
ahoma><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> <st1:PersonName w:st=3D"=
on">Assembly
for the Teaching of English Grammar</st1:PersonName></span></font><fon=
t
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:
Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></font></b><font size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Brad =
Johnston<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November =
18,
2008<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> [log in to unmask]
.EDU<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Norman Mailer</=
span></font><font
size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:
auto'><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-=
family:
Arial'> </span></font><font size=3D2><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D=
0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'>
<div id=3Dyiv1369941323>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:
auto'><font size=3D3 face=3DArial><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;fon=
t-family:
Arial'>Of 300+ ATEGians, some few will be interested to
know that in the first 21 pages of "The Executioner's
Song", for which Norman Mailer won a Pulitzer in 1980, the word
'had' appears 98 times, of which 44 are used correctly as the past te=
nse
of the verb "to have", or in the past perfect, or in the
subjunctive. The rest (54) are in error.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D=
'font-size:
12.0pt'><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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e
the list" <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'=
>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494440BF33B08CAFSEMAILfacult_--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 13:01:06 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Exhibit #90+ - Schatz Grammar Rules
--0-175991035-1227992466=:85086
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Bob Yates,
=A0
The sentence in question is, I washed my hair after I (finished/had finishe=
d) my homework.
=A0
You didn't say, which doesn't surprise me, but since I think "finished" is =
correct and you wouldn't be writing if you agreed, I assume you think the s=
entence should read, "I washed my hair after I had finished my homework."
=A0
I further said, 'Washed' is a past tense verb as that word is=A0used in the=
=A0sentence. Nota Bene: as that word is used in the sentence.
=A0
Let's see what you say about "washed".
=A0
The past tense form and past participle form of many verbs are the same. Ag=
reed.
=A0
The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verb=
s in English, is the same. Agreed.
5) Brad washed the dishes.=A0 6) Brad has washed the dishes. Agreed.
Insert 'not' in 5 and 6.
7) Brad did not wash the dishes. 8) Brad has not washed the dishes. Agreed.
=A0
It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlike write, are the sam=
e. Agreed.
=A0
O.K., Bob, now what? What does this interesting diversion have to do with t=
he Schatz sentence? which is where we started.
=A0
Just for fun, ask all the ATEGians whether...
=A0
...=A0the verb in the sentence is past tense, in which case it will read, I=
washed my hair after I finished my homework, or,
=A0
...=A0the verb in the sentence is past perfect tense, in which case it will=
read, I washed my hair after I had finished my homework.
=A0
(I think you'll agree that the word 'washed'=A0is one or the other by virtu=
e of how it functions, not by what other word she may have put in front of =
it.)
=A0
Ask them to reply=A0to you and not to the list. (After two or three replies=
, the list dries up.) See how many of the 330 you can get to vote. And let =
me know.
=A0
I'm sorry you're set for 'plain text'. That tends to make a mess of it. But=
we'll get by.
=A0
.brad.29nov08.
--- On Sat, 11/29/08, Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I know I should not do this, but when a person claims great knowledge of
grammar, it might be time to point out a rather egregious error.
Brad, our expert on "correct" English writes:
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.
One of the properties of English is that the past tense form and past
participle form of many verbs are the same. Let's consider why this must b=
e
the case.
Clearly wrote and write are not the same form of the verb write in 1 and 2.
1) Brad wrote a post.
2 Brad has written a post.
Notice what happens when "not" is inserted.
3) Brad did not write a post.
4) Brad has not written a post.
"not" goes in front of the tense verb in both. If there is not a
helping verb, in other words, the past tense form is the only tensed verb, =
then
we need a form of do. =20
The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verb=
s in
English, is the same.
5) Brad washed the dishes. =20
6) Brad has washed the dishes.
Insert not in 5 and 6.
7) Brad did not wash the dishes.
8) Brad has not washed the dishes.
Because sentences 7 and 8 pattern the same way as 3 and 4, it seems much ea=
sier
to assume that wash, like write, has two different forms: a past tense form=
and
a past participle. It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlik=
e
write, are the same.
If we don't like that solution, then we have to tell a completely different
story for write as opposed to wash.
By the way, if you want to tell a completely different story for wash, then
what kind of story do you have to tell for put (or cut or hit)?
9) You now put the dishes away.
10) You put the dishes away yesterday.
11) You have put the dishes away.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
****
For someone so sure about what is correct and incorrect, it more than a lit=
tle
surprising that he cannot keep straight the difference between past tense =
form
of a verb and the past participle form of the verb.
Brad Johnston [log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07 PM
Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
=20
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
=20
Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish he
(had) caught in the river.
=20
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
=20
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.
=20
Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
=20
page 172 - Correct the errors.
=20
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a nuisan=
ce
in a small Oregon town.
=20
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused a
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
=20
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.
=20
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past perfec=
t
error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.
=20
.brad.28nov08.
=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--0-175991035-1227992466=:85086
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top"
style="font: inherit;"><DIV>Dear Bob Yates,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The sentence in question is, I washed my hair after I (finished/had
finished) my homework.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You didn't say, which doesn't surprise me, but since I think "finished"
is correct and you wouldn't be writing if you agreed, I assume you think the
sentence should read, "I washed my hair after I <U>had</U> <U>finished</U>
my homework."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I further said, 'Washed' is a past tense verb as that word is used
in the sentence. <EM>Nota Bene:</EM> <EM>as that word is used in the
sentence</EM>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Let's see what you say about "washed".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The past tense form and past participle form of many verbs are the
same. <U>Agreed</U>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular
verbs in English, is the same. <U>Agreed</U>.<BR><BR>5) Brad washed the
dishes. 6) Brad has washed the dishes. <U>Agreed</U>.<BR><BR>Insert
'not' in 5 and 6.<BR><BR>7) Brad did not wash the dishes. 8) Brad has not
washed the dishes. <U>Agreed</U>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlike write, are the
same. <U>Agreed</U>.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>O.K., Bob, now what? What does this interesting diversion have to do
with the Schatz sentence? which is where we started.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just for fun, ask <U>all</U> the ATEGians whether...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>... the verb in the sentence is <U>past</U> <U>tense</U>, in which
case it will read, I washed my hair after I finished my homework, or,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>... the verb in the sentence is <U>past</U> <U>perfect</U>
<U>tense</U>, in which case it will read, I washed my hair after I had
finished my homework.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(I think you'll agree that the word 'washed' is one or the other
by virtue of <U>how</U> <U>it</U> <U>functions</U>, not by what other word
she may have put in front of it.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ask them to reply to you and not to the list. (After two or three
replies, the list dries up.) See how many of the 330 you can get to vote.
And let me know.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'm sorry you're set for 'plain text'. That tends to make a mess of it.
But we'll get by.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>.brad.29nov08.<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 11/29/08, Robert Yates
<I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><PRE>I know I should not do this, but when a
person claims great knowledge of
grammar, it might be time to point out a rather egregious error.
Brad, our expert on "correct" English writes:
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.
One of the properties of English is that the past tense form and past
participle form of many verbs are the same. Let's consider why this must be
the case.
Clearly wrote and write are not the same form of the verb write in 1 and 2.
1) Brad wrote a post.
2 Brad has written a post.
Notice what happens when "not" is inserted.
3) Brad did not write a post.
4) Brad has not written a post.
"not" goes in front of the tense verb in both. If there is not a
helping verb, in other words, the past tense form is the only tensed verb,
then
we need a form of do.
The past tense form and past participle form of wash, like all regular verbs
in
English, is the same.
5) Brad washed the dishes.
6) Brad has washed the dishes.
Insert not in 5 and 6.
7) Brad did not wash the dishes.
8) Brad has not washed the dishes.
Because sentences 7 and 8 pattern the same way as 3 and 4, it seems much
easier
to assume that wash, like write, has two different forms: a past tense form
and
a past participle. It just so happens that these two forms for wash, unlike
write, are the same.
If we don't like that solution, then we have to tell a completely different
story for write as opposed to wash.
By the way, if you want to tell a completely different story for wash, then
what kind of story do you have to tell for put (or cut or hit)?
9) You now put the dishes away.
10) You put the dishes away yesterday.
11) You have put the dishes away.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
****
For someone so sure about what is correct and incorrect, it more than a
little
surprising that he cannot keep straight the difference between past tense
form
of a verb and the past participle form of the verb.
Brad Johnston <A href="mailto:[log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07
PM">[log in to unmask]> 11/28/08 6:07 PM
</A>
Grammar Rules, by Mary S. Schatz, c.2002 by Garlic Press.
page 171 - Skill Check - Choose the best sentence in each group.
Her pick. Wrapped in an old shawl, the elderly man carried a smelly fish he
(had) caught in the river.
page 172 - Skill Check - Choose the correct word.
I washed my hair after I (finished/had finished) my homework.
Her pick. I washed my hair after I (had) finished my homework.
page 172 - Correct the errors.
There was a dead whale that had washed up on the beach that caused a
nuisance
in a small Oregon town.
Her correction: A dead whale that (had) washed up on the beach caused a
nuisance in a small Oregon town.
'caught', 'finished', and 'washed' are all past tense
verbs, as those words are used in the above sentences. The word 'had'
does not belong in front of past tense verbs.
This is Exhibit #90+ to my assertion that there is at least one past perfect
error on any grammar website or in any grammar text you can name.
.brad.28nov08.
</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table><br>
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End of ATEG Digest - 28 Nov 2008 to 29 Nov 2008 (#2008-249)
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