Your message summarizes perfectly why I'm not teaching writing at the university level anymore.  The hours I spent responding to papers, critiquing rewrites, etc., took over my life.  If I ever teach at that level again, I'll opt for speech instead.

Linda

>----- ------- Original Message ------- -----
>From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 15:02:05
>
>Students do need our advice, but they need our
>specific advice and  
>not our generic advice.  That's why current class
>sizes in  
>composition are stupid.
>
>Some students need to hear that they should
>avoid verbs of being
>avoid passive voice
>avoid adjectives
>avoid adverbs
>avoid sentences that start with "Because"
>avoid sentences that start with subject/verb
>constructions
>avoid "you"
>avoid "I"
>
>and some students need to hear the opposite advice.
>
>
>If the teacher makes a blanket statement to the
>class, she is	
>undoubtedly hitting a few targets and missing many
>others.  Writing  
>is not like math.  Math has no style.	Writing
>students come to class  
>with bad and good habits that feed their style. 
>They need to hear  
>specific advice from their readers when their style
>misses the mark.   
>A teacher with a class of 35 students in five
>classes can't do that	
>for them.  That's what makes it stupid.
>
>Susan
>
>
>
>
>
>On Apr 19, 2009, at 1:20 AM, Scott Woods wrote:
>
>> I generally don't give my students advice.  I
>certainly don't refer	
>> them to manuals.  Usually, I show them what works
>in the writing of  
>> others, have them practice writing like that,
>then train them to do	
>> those things consistently.  For instance,  when
>they edit their  
>> papers, I have my students identify all their
>verbs, circle all  
>> "be" verbs, decide the function of each "be"
>verb--linking,  
>> passive, auxiliary--then make a choice about
>changing the linking  
>> to action, passive to active, progressive to
>simple.  All I want  
>> them to do is choose for each verb.	I also have
>them make a choice  
>> for each action verb about increasing its
>specificity.  This works  
>> for noun specificity as well.
>>
>> Scott Woods
>>
>> --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Paul E. Doniger
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> From: Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]>
>> Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest -
>14 Apr 2009 to 15  
>> Apr 2009 (#2009-86)
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Friday, April 17, 2009, 4:44 PM
>>
>> For the record, although I never analyzed this in
>any statistical  
>> or methodical way, many of my (high school -
>honors level)	
>> students' papers seem to run into trouble when
>they get carried  
>> away by adjectives and adverbs (I'm talking about
>academic, not	
>> creative writing here). I wonder if anyone else
>has any experience  
>> with this.
>>
>> Paul D.
>>
>> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
>condemn it as an  
>> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
>3.4.127-128).
>>
>>
>> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 9:05:43 AM
>> Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest -
>14 Apr 2009 to 15  
>> Apr 2009 (#2009-86)
>>
>> Bill, Scott,
>>   If the corpus grammars tell it accurately,
>writing with nouns and  
>> verbs is good advice for fiction (Biber found a
>negative  
>> correlation for attributive adjectives), but not
>for journalism or  
>> academic writing, which build lots of meaning
>into the noun	
>> phrases. Of	course, saying adjectives should be
>used sparingly is  
>> not the same as saying they are unimportant. The
>lone adjective may  
>> be the most important word in the sentence. But
>English teachers  
>> especially seem to equate literacy with
>literature.
>>   I thought Pullum was a bit arrogant in the
>review, a bit	
>> disrespectful of the writing teacher's
>perspective. And it may very  
>> well be that linguists are much to blame for not
>giving us a  
>> discourse friendly grammar to work with. There's
>some good advice  
>> in the little book, but enough problems to negate
>that out. I  
>> usually tell students who own the book not to pay
>attention to  
>> anything but the style sections.
>>
>> Craig
>> Spruiell, William C wrote:
>> > Scott:
>> >
>> > I've had similar students --- but the advice
>they need is more  
>> along the
>> > lines of, "use specific nouns, not fluffy
>ones." The problem really
>> > isn't the adjectives and adverbs. And at least
>some of those	
>> students
>> > aren't deliberately being verbose, or
>displaying signs of functional
>> > illiteracy (they probably know a fair number of
>highly specific
>> > nouns...but they're part of the students'
>passive vocabulary, rather
>> > than being part of the active pool that is
>deployed when writing).
>> > Instead, they've adopted a common strategy of
>marking out a	
>> general area
>> > with the noun and then using modifiers to home
>in on a particular  
>> spot
>> > in within it.
>> > In fact, it's the same thing professional
>writers do when they  
>> come out
>> > with sentences such as "The fact that these
>results have been  
>> observed
>> > indicates that the phenomenon is real." "Fact"
>is fluffy -- but  
>> since I
>> > know the genre, I know when I can get away with
>using it (if that
>> > sentence bothers you, all I can say is that
>amazing numbers of  
>> articles
>> > have been published with near-equivalents).
>Students pick up on that
>> > kind of practice, but they don't yet have
>enough exposure to  
>> scientific
>> > genre to know which words can be used in
>particular cases without  
>> coming
>> > across as "gauche."
>> >
>> > This simply highlights one of Pullum's points:
>One of S&W's major
>> > injunctions is that writers should be clear and
>concise, but they  
>> wrote
>> > THEIR OWN RULE in a way that attacked a side
>effect of the actual
>> > problem rather than the problem itself, and
>implied there was  
>> something
>> > wrong with entire classes of words that are
>only problematic when
>> > they're used as part of a compensation
>mechanism. It's as if I  
>> watched
>> > someone using glue to connect two pieces of
>wood that should instead
>> > have been nailed together, and then proclaimed
>that glue is a bad  
>> thing.
>> > I'd probably figure out my mistake once I saw
>people trying to nail
>> > wallpaper.
>> >
>> > Bill Spruiell
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
>Grammar
>> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
>Scott
>> > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 1:08 PM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: An expert speaks? was ATEG Digest
>- 14 Apr 2009 to  
>> 15 Apr
>> > 2009 (#2009-86)
>> >
>> > Pulliam is the stupid one if he does not
>understand what The  
>> Little Book
>> > means by "Write with nouns and verbs, not with
>adjectives and  
>> adverbs," they
>> > insist.
>> > (The motivation of this mysterious decree
>remains unclear to me.)
>> >
>> > Anyone who had ever graded English themes,
>especially descriptive
>> > writing,
>> > has been exposed to students who use plain
>verbs and generic  
>> nouns, both
>> > of
>> > which are accompanied by a plethora of adverbs
>and adjectives
>> > respectively
>> > when more descriptive verbs and nouns would do
>a far better job with
>> > less
>> > effort.  The only explanation that I can give
>for such students is
>> > either
>> > functional illiteracy or sheer laziness (many
>theme assignments  
>> have--or
>> > used to have--a minimum number of words).	The
>slovenly among  
>> them use
>> > any
>> > gimmick to expand their impoverished thoughts
>and expression.
>> >
>> > I cannot believe that Professor Pulliam has
>taught English without
>> > having
>> > encountered such students: his extreme
>prejudice towards The	
>> Little Book
>> > seems to have blinded him to the extent that he
>can only see  
>> vices and
>> > never
>> > virtue.  The Little Book has its faults;
>however, I would trust  
>> Shrunk
>> > and
>> > White over a "grammarian" who has had too
>little contact with  
>> writing to
>> > understand the motivation for the very sound
>advice:
>> >
>> > "Write with nouns and verbs, not with
>adjectives and  
>> adverbs." (The motivation of this decree is quite
>clear to me and  
>> has been since
>> > Freshman English.)
>> >
>> > Scott Catledge
>> > Professor Emeritus
>> >
>> > During the "God is dead" fad of the 60's, I had
>a bumper sticker  
>> that
>> > said,
>> > "My God is alive--sorry about yours."
>> >
>> > My understanding of the "motivation" is clear
>to me--sorry it's not
>> > clear
>> > to him.  Perhaps he should teach a Freshman
>English course sometime.
>> >
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