Mike,

That may work fine for "Translation students," but average American high
school students couldn't do that. Perhaps that's one reason why ATEG is
trying to change how grammar is (isn't) taught in public schools.

Paul E. Doniger

----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Garant <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: who or whom


> Hi!
> I think grammar checkers (GC)are OK prvided that the
> students know that they MUST choose whether to follow
> the advice given or reject it.  I am sure that grammar
> checkers help my tranlation students prepare better
> texts in English.  I train then to use GC as a tool
> and not accept the answers 100 percent of the time.
> They seem to catch on.
> Best, Mike
>
>
> --- "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > This is why I tell my students to turn off the
> > grammar checkers on their
> > computers (not to mention the fact that they don't
> > understand the
> > instructions they are getting, anyway!).
> >
> > Paul E. Doniger
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Wollin, Edith <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 4:09 PM
> > Subject: Re: who or whom
> >
> >
> > > For a little amusement on this issue, I just had
> > the Word software grammar
> > > check tell me that I needed "whom" in this
> > construction: "we know who you
> > > are."
> > >
> > > Edith Wollin
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Johanna Rubba [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:35 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: who or whom
> > >
> > >
> > > Thanks, Jeff, you've nicely depicted how messy it
> > is to try to delimit
> > > and label dialects. Finding social features that
> > consistently align with
> > > dialect features is probably impossible,
> > especially if you want a
> > > fine-grained analysis.
> > >
> > > Perhaps objectively and scientifically class isn't
> > a correct defining
> > > parameter for dialect differences in  our society.
> > When we consider
> > > language attitudes, however,  I think class is an
> > important social
> > > construct precisely because of the
> > superior/inferior values that are
> > > attached to it. In a Hairston-like survey that I
> > did with a class of
> > > mine, we found that dialect features associated
> > with less-educated
> > > speakers (such as double negation and third-person
> > 'don't') elicited far
> > > more consistently negative responses than dialect
> > features that are
> > > nonstandard (that is, incorrect from the trad.
> > grammar point of view)
> > > but appear in the dialect of educated speakers
> > (such as 'between you and
> > > I' or failure to use 'whom' in an object
> > position). Judging from their
> > > self-idenitifications, most of our respondents
> > held positions that would
> > > be considered middle to upper-class. So the kinds
> > of 'mistakes' that
> > > they themselves might make were judged much more
> > acceptable than the
> > > kinds of 'mistakes' that people from
> > less-successful groups might make.
> > >
> > >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > Johanna Rubba   Associate Professor, Linguistics
> > > English Department, California Polytechnic State
> > University
> > > One Grand Avenue  * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> > > Tel. (805)-756-2184  *  Fax: (805)-756-6374 *
> > Dept. Phone.  756-2596
> > > * E-mail: [log in to unmask] *  Home page:
> > > http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> > >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> >
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> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> =====
>
> Mike Garant, Senior Lecturer
>
> (I'll be moving to the University of Tampere, Finland and Tampere
Polytechnic in September)
>
> University of Helsinki Department of Translation Studies in Kouvola
>
> P.O. Box 94, FIN-45101 Kouvola, Finland TEL 05 825 2210  FAX 05 825 2251
>
> Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
>
>
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