What I find most encouraging and exciting about this discussion is that Ed
is using _literary_ examples on his Web site, rather than the forced
specimens so (understandably) common grammar texts.  Grammar complements
literary study, and vice versa.  I'd be reluctant to offer this truism if it
weren't so rarely acknowledged in the curricula of both disciplines these
days.

Maybe Martha Kolln is right--a story by Henry James isn't the best source of
examples if you're looking for unambiguous results.  But for reasons
suggested by Burkhard's posting, James's sentence shows how grammar can
enact a theme: where does Daisy (and where does James) belong in relation to
the audience that will "remember" the place?

Here's one quick try at using grammar to account for the literary effect or
the tone . . . James takes advantage of the mobility of the "parenthetical
disjunct" (placing it before the verb of the clause) to keep a certain kind
of reader from finding his comments naive or self-congratulatory.  I'm not
so provincial, he seems to say, as (!) to think you couldn't have been there
too, reader.


Jim Barszcz
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-----Original Message-----
From: Martha Kolln <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Another Grammatical Question


>     I have been putting a grammar course on-line, with answer keys, and
I'm
>wondering how members of ATEG would explain "as many travelers will
remember"
>in the following sentence from the opening paragraph of James' "Daisy
Miller":
>
>There are, indeed, many hotels, for the entertainment of tourists is the
>business of  the place, which, as many travelers will remember, is seated
upon
>the edge of a remarkably blue lake--a lake that it behooves every tourist
to
>visit.
>
>You might also want to comment on the function of the "for" clause. I will
>probably include some of your comments as notes Ø disagreements :) Ø to my
>explanation.
>
>Thanks,
>Ed

Burkhard and Terry and Dick have given all of us--and Ed, of course--lots
of food for thought.  My own grammar gurus, Quirk et al. ("A Comprehensive
Grammar of the English Language") discuss this kind of "as" clause under
the heading "comment clauses" in their chapter entitled "Syntactic and
semantic functions of subordinate clauses."  I'm quoting from section
15.55.  The discussion begins with this definition and example:

"Comment clauses are parenthetical disjuncts.  They may occur initially,
finally, or medially, and thus generally have a separate tone unit:

        Kingston, as you probably know, is the capital of Jamaica. [They
include the marks of prosody in this example.)

Two pages later they explain further this particular construction, which
looks very much like Ed's example:

"Type (ii) comment clauses are introduced by "as."  "As" serves one of two
syntactic functions in these clauses: as a relative or as a subordinator.

"In its relative function, "as" introduces a type of sentential relative
clause that may precede or be inserted in its antecedent, in this case the
clause or sentence to which it is attached.  In its mobility, this
as-clause is intermediate between the relative and adverbial constructions.
Like the sentential relative "which," "as" may function as a relative
pronoun:

        She is extremely popular among students, as is common knowledge
(cf: which is common knowledge)
        I live a long way from work, as you know (cf: which you know)

"Other examples of clauses with relative as: as everybody knows, as you may
remember, as you say "

As you see, they are placing this construction as "intermediate between the
relative and adverbial constructions."   (They do the same in their
discussion of "for," as I mentioned in my earlier letter.)  Their
discussion also makes clear the metadiscourse nature of such clauses.  For
example, they mention that "type ii" comment clauses are affirmative,
implying the truth of the matrix clause.  They contrast the following as an
example:  "George, as you said, is a liar." vs. "George, you said, is a
liar [but I don't believe you]."

I don't know what kind of insights you're expecting from your students, Ed,
but if you're looking for a single "right" answer, you might want to find
another example!

Martha

P.S. to DollyMama:  We've all egged our faces from time to time (I may have
done it here!).  Don't let that little goof deter you from joining the
conversation.  We're all learning from one another.