As a grammarian for three score years (starting with my first independent
hypotheses in grammar) and a
linguist of two-score years, I feel that the ATEG would be weakened if
linguists left the discussion,
particularly sociolinguists--not to say that diachronic linguists do not
have valuable input. If I were an
English major with no exposure to linguistics, I would be astounded that a
non-Chomsky world could exist,
much less flourish, in English linguistics and what such studies both added
to our knowledge of grammar and
explained some of our usage problems. United we stand; divided we may well
fall. As B. Franklyn stated, "We
must all hang together or decidedly we will all hang separately." There are
PC English professors out there
whose functional knowledge of literature is limited to Pope's statement,
"Whatever is, is right." and who
vociferously proclaim that any English expression is as good as any other
and that any attempt to expose the
student to Standard English is not only a violation of that student's rights
but an illegal discrimination
against that student's racial, ethnic, or cultural group that uses such
language.
I and many other English linguists-grammarians may remain in the main
grammar group as well but both groups
will suffer from the lack of adequate cross-pollination. Already both
English linguists and grammarians have
extremists amid them; dividing into smaller groups will only amplify their
voices. We need voices of reason
to keep thing running more smoothly.
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 16 Jul 2011 to 17 Jul 2011 (#2011-129)
There are 3 messages totalling 281 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. All Gaul is divided
2. <No subject given> (2)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: All Gaul is divided
--0-1351641524-1310909731=:87269
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Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I hope=
will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the goal of =
grammar is that we all might=A0be on the same page, literally and figurativ=
ely, so that we might be better able to understand one another.=0A=A0=0AUnd=
erstanding one another doesn't=A0depend on where words and conventions came=
from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people actually say=
and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to agree on what =
makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have different traini=
ng, different interests, and different goals. They look at what divides us =
(descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what joins us together (p=
rescriptive grammar).=0A=A0=0AWhen the linguists, who=A0dominate the ATEG l=
istserv, go off on one of their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely s=
ay to the linguists, "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farm=
er saying "that's interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the partic=
ulars of raising Holsteins. What interests the linguists=A0IS interesting, =
it just isn't what makes the grammar world go around.=0A=A0=0AThe demonstra=
ble result is that the linguists tend to carry on their exotic discussions =
on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in the shadows. I propose=
to you=A0that there should be a way to better serve the grammarians, of wh=
om there are thousands in this country, and=A0who each have=A0questions abo=
ut the day-to-day of teaching grammar.=0A=A0=0AThe grammarians can go somew=
here else, of course, and maybe they do, but since=A0ATEG is the Assembly f=
or the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it not appropriate that ATEG con=
cern itself with English Grammar and let the linguists go elsewhere and pon=
der, in a different venue, those things that interest them?=0A=0Abr-had.sun=
.17july11.=0A.=0A
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--0-1351641524-1310909731=:87269
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div id=3D"yiv884019523"><div st=
yle=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-fami=
ly: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; "><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310=
839105118232"><font id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118313" size=3D=
"2">Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of <span id=3D"yi=
v884019523misspell-0"><span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-0">ATEG</span></span=
>, which I hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me th=
at the goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, liter=
ally and <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-1"><span>figuratively</span></spa=
n>, so that we might be better able to understand one another.</font></div>=
<div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118234"><font id=3D"yiv8840195=
23yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118311" size=3D"2"> </font></div><div
id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118236"><font class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" size=3D"2"><font>Understanding one another doesn't depend on wh=
ere words and conventions came from as much as what they mean. Linguists lo=
ok at what people actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas gra=
mmarians try to agree=0A on what makes sense to <span id=3D"yiv884019523mis=
spell-2"><span>most</span></span> of us <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-3"=
><span>most</span></span> of the time. Linguists have different training, d=
ifferent interests, and different goals. They look at what divides us (desc=
riptive grammar), while grammarians look for what joins us</font> <font id=
=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118304">together (prescriptive gramma=
r).</font></font></div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118238"=
><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"2"> </font></div><div id=3D"=
yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118240"><font id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0=
_4_1310839105118315" size=3D"2">When the linguists, who dominate the <=
span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-4"><span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-1">ATEG=
</span></span> <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-5"><span id=3D"yiv884019523=
misspell-2">listserv</span></span>, go off on one of their arcane tangents,=
the grammarians politely say to the
linguists, "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying=
"that's interesting" to a <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-6"><span>cattle=
</span></span>=0A rancher who describes the <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspel=
l-7"><span>particulars</span></span> of raising <span id=3D"yiv884019523mis=
spell-8"><span>Holsteins</span></span>. What interests the linguists I=
S interesting, it just isn't what makes the grammar world go around.</font>=
</div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118242"><font class=3D"A=
pple-style-span" size=3D"2"> </font></div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3=
_2_0_4_1310839105118244"><font id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_13108391051183=
17" size=3D"2">The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry =
on their <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-10"><span>exotic</span></span> di=
scussions on this <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-11"><span id=3D"yiv88401=
9523misspell-3">listserv</span></span> and the grammarians tend to lurk in =
the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better ser=
ve the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and w=
ho <span
id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-12">each</span> have questions about the d=
ay-to-day of teaching grammar.</font></div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0=
_4_1310839105118246"><font size=3D"2"> </font></div><div id=3D"yiv8840=
19523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118248"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D=
"2"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span"><font id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_13=
10839105118302">The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe=
they do, but since <span id=3D"yiv884019523misspell-14">ATEG</span> i=
s the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it not appropria=
te that ATEG<var id=3D"yiv884019523yui-ie-cursor"></var> <span id=3D"yiv884=
019523misspell-15">concern</span> itself with English G</font></font><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span"><span id=3D"misspell-6" class=3D"">rammar</span>=
and let the linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those=
things that interest them?</font></font></div><div
id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118248"><font class=3D"Apple-style=
-span" size=3D"2"><br></font></div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_13108=
39105118248"><font class=3D"Apple-style-span" size=3D"2">br-had.sun.17july1=
1.</font></div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105118290" style=
=3D"font-size: 14pt; ">.</div><div id=3D"yiv884019523yui_3_2_0_4_1310839105=
118294" style=3D"font-size: 14pt; "><br></div></div></div></div></body></ht=
ml>
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<p>
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--0-1351641524-1310909731=:87269--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 15:53:39 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: <No subject given>
--_2f021a0d-2629-4c57-9391-c2c36fe59235_
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This is like so totally rad=2C ya know what I'm sayin'? http://www.youtube.=
com/watch?v=3D7kdrsPRZnK8
Geoff Layton =
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--_2f021a0d-2629-4c57-9391-c2c36fe59235_
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<head>
<style><!--
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<body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'>
This is like =3Bso totally rad=2C ya know what I'm sayin'?<BR> =3B<=
BR><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D7kdrsPRZnK8">http://www.yout=
ube.com/watch?v=3D7kdrsPRZnK8</a><br><br>Geoff Layton<BR>
</div>=
</body>
</html>=
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<p>
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--_2f021a0d-2629-4c57-9391-c2c36fe59235_--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 18:38:03 -0400
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: <No subject given>
--20cf302acf3c7d04ce04a84b8b6f
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This is Taylor Mali, who has become a favorite at my school when we do the
annual Poetry Festival. We've had him come to give a "reading," though he
reads nothing but just recites it all. He was a fifth grade teacher in New
York before he took his show on the road.
Go to YouTube and watch him do "Falling in Love is like Owning a Dog," and
the other English teacher favorite, "The Impotence of Proofreading." That
one showed up at the bottom of the screen when I played this video.
Don Stewart
www.writeforcollege.com
www.writing123.com
On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Geoffrey Layton
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> This is like so totally rad, ya know what I'm sayin'?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kdrsPRZnK8
>
> Geoff Layton
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--20cf302acf3c7d04ce04a84b8b6f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is Taylor Mali, who has become a favorite at my school when we do the =
annual Poetry Festival. We've had him come to give a "reading,&quo=
t; though he reads nothing but just recites it all. He was a fifth grade te=
acher in New York before he took his show on the road.<div>
<br></div><div>Go to YouTube and watch him do "Falling in Love is like=
Owning a Dog," and the other English teacher favorite, "The Impo=
tence of Proofreading." That one showed up at the bottom of the screen=
when I played this video.</div>
<div>=A0=A0<br clear=3D"all">Don Stewart<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.writeforcollege.com" target=3D"_blank">www.writeforco=
llege.com</a><br><a href=3D"http://www.writing123.com" target=3D"_blank">ww=
w.writing123.com</a><div><br></div><br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 4:53 PM, Geoffre=
y Layton <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" tar=
get=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">
This is like=A0so totally rad, ya know what I'm sayin'?<br>=A0<br><=
a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D7kdrsPRZnK8" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D7kdrsPRZnK8</a><br><br>Geoff Layton<br>
=
</div>
</div>
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ace at:
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lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a>
</p></blockquote></div><br></div>
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--20cf302acf3c7d04ce04a84b8b6f--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 16 Jul 2011 to 17 Jul 2011 (#2011-129)
***********************************************************
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