I agree that this approach has advantages. It certainly makes the student think a bit more about grammatical options, and if I were teaching a writing class I would encourage it. The examples I gave were representative of problems that arise in English grammar, problems that at times can be more difficult to work around the my examples were.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: 2009-04-09 15:12
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Any member can give their opinion
How about "Everyone brought lunch and ate it under the trees"? During
my grammar training, I encourage folks to look for alternatives that
don't violate any rules or create awkward sentences as a result of
following them.
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 11:30 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Any member can give their opinion
The "singular they" issue raises one of my favorite questions: how do
we know when the language has changed and as English teachers, what
should be our role in such change?
It seems clear to me that, for many people, using "they" as a third
person singular pronoun is perfectly acceptable, even in formal
written contexts. For others, it is still a violation of the rules of
agreement. Note, however, that if we simply declare "they" to be both
singular and plural, as "you" became long ago, then using "they" as a
singular pronoun does not violate the rules of agreement.
It seems to me that English teachers tend to hang onto rules that are
in flux, that we too often are a force resisting the natural change in
the language. Perhaps we should, at least, see our job, not as
protecting the traditional, but as representing reality. If that
reality is in flux, we should say so.
I would, personally, go even further and suggest we might actively
encourage change that seems to improve the language. Surely,
declaring "they" to be both singular and plural is a more elegant
solution than the other two choices: "sexist he" or "clunky he or
she."
Peter Adams
On Apr 9, 2009, at 9:04 AM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> The tension is between the morphological singular of the indefinite
> pronoun ending in "-one" or "-body" and the notional plural of the
> universal quantifier "every-". This tension is complicated by
> distance from the referent, so in (1) the formal rule works.
>
> (1) Everyone brought his lunch with him.
>
> In (2a), however, where the second pronoun is farther from the
> subject, the plural works and the singular, in speech, has that
> peculiar 3rd person form "em" that goes back to Old English and that
> is ambiguous as to number. Since "em" is no onger a written form,
> written English forces a false choice on the writer. (2b)
illustrates
> some of the dilemmas of this forced choice.
>
> (2a) Everyone brought his or her lunch with them.
> (2b) Everyone brought his or her lunch with him/him or her/her.
>
> In (3), where the pronoun is in a separate clause, notional
agreement
> takes over.
>
> (3) Everyone brought a lunch with them, and they ate it under the
> trees.
>
> We simply wouldn't say
>
> (4) Everyone brought his lunch with him, and he ate it under the
> trees.
>
> which begins to sound a bit too much like SI Hayakawa's
>
> (5) Abortion is a decision between the patient and his doctor.
>
> Herb
>
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN 47306
> [log in to unmask]
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask] ] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: April 9, 2009 5:48 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Any member can give their opinion
>
> I find it acceptable in conversation (sometimes), but not in formal
> writing. My students (high school) have a very hard time with my
> "conservative" attitude about it. I don't find it easy to read
> "their," et al, as singular pronouns.
>
> Paul D.
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
> ________________________________
> From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2009 10:33:14 PM
> Subject: Any member can give their opinion
>
> At 06:15 PM 4/8/2009, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>> I was wondering whether list members find that it is now acceptable
>> (or at least accepted in some circles) to use "they" or "their" as
an
>> alternative to constructions like "he or she" or "his or her"--
that
>> is, as a gender-neutral third-person pronoun (as in my subject
line).
>
> DD: HORROR! I demur. Keep those agreeable agreements amongst the
> components of the utterance.
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