I had intensive training in writing from my 11th-grade English teacher (my 12th-grade English was a functional illiterate) and continued in Freshman English for three quarters at Mississippi Southern College in the late '50s. No teacher ever relied on mnemonics but all on thinking things through. I tried to do the same when I taught English in the '60s and '70s.
Scott Catledge
---- ATEG automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> There are 12 messages totaling 2495 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions (12)
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 04:08:37 +0000
> From: "Turner, Tildon L." <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Hi Nathalia,
There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
All the best,
Til
Til Turner
Languages and Literature
Northern Virginia Community College
www.englishiskillingme.com
Ph: 703.323.3269
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
Best,
Nathalia Hardy
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2015 21:22:37 -0700
> From: "Peter H. Fries" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> You might also get them to look at how *so* is used in a corpus (or on the
> web).
> Peter
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Turner, Tildon L. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Nathalia,
> >
> > There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always
> > stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or
> > erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY.
> > The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating
> > conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the
> > meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be
> > forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some
> > students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect
> > grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with
> > younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding
> > regarding "so".
> > Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I
> > went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course
> > does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound
> > like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket",
> > which typically does take a comma.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Til
> >
> >
> > Til Turner
> > Languages and Literature
> > Northern Virginia Community College
> > www.englishiskillingme.com
> > Ph: 703.323.3269
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> > [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [
> > [log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my
> > students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and
> > should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of
> > them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are
> > seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic
> > device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding
> > firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Nathalia Hardy
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
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> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Peter H. Fries
>
> Until December 12 2014
>
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>
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>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 04:43:03 +0000
> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Nathalia,
One additional trick for approaching this (although Til's "therefore test" is the easiest for most students) is to distinguish coordinating "so" from subordinating "so (that)" -- we don't always say or write the 'that' after the second one, but we can always add it. Using Til's sentences and adding 'that':
(Works) I went to bed early so that I could get a good night's sleep
(Ick.) It is very hot outside today, so that I'm not going to wear a jacket
This won't work, however, if you have ESL students (since it relies on native-speaker instincts) and also becomes less effective if the sentence is long (since readers get hazy on what the earlier part of the sentence was).
Bill Spruiell
Central Michigan University
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Turner, Tildon L. [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
Hi Nathalia,
There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
All the best,
Til
Til Turner
Languages and Literature
Northern Virginia Community College
www.englishiskillingme.com
Ph: 703.323.3269
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
Best,
Nathalia Hardy
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 13:56:43 +0000
> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> One corollary of the fact that “so” is a coordinating conjunction is that a sentence headed by “so” would not, in most cases, be a sentence fragment. (Bill’s “so that” test would apply.)
> Any quick look at a corpus would show examples of “so” leading off a sentence. One example I use with my classes is the third paragraph of M. L. King’s “I Have a Dream” speech: “So we are gathered here today to dramatize an appalling condition.” The “so” is meant to characterize the purpose of the gathering as occasioned by everything discussed in the first two paragraphs. (A promise was made by the emancipation proclamation. “But one hundred years later,” the promise still hasn’t been delivered. So….) The second paragraph starts with but, the third with so, and it masterfully fits the relationship between the three units.
> I usually get a laugh by differentiating between “a little but” (between two clauses) and “a big but” (between larger chunks of text). Again, if you look at a corpus of texts, you will find plenty of examples. The benefit to pointing this out is that you are calling attention to ways in which successful writers orient a reader to the relationships between sections of text. When we see right through to meaning, the cohesive moves are often invisible. Our job, as I see it, is to make those moves highly visible. Students may be more or less aware of their subject, but they are not naturally aware of text. A great deal of textuality occurs at the level of the sentence. Sentences are not independent units. They participate in the construction of text.
>
> Craig
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter H. Fries
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:23 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> You might also get them to look at how so is used in a corpus (or on the web).
> Peter
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Turner, Tildon L. <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
> Hi Nathalia,
>
> There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
> Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Til
>
>
> Til Turner
> Languages and Literature
> Northern Virginia Community College
> www.englishiskillingme.com<http://www.englishiskillingme.com>
> Ph: 703.323.3269<tel:703.323.3269>
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<mailto:ATEG@To%20join%20or%20leave%20this%20LISTSERV%20list,%20please%20visit%20the%20list's%20web%20interface%20at:%20%20%20%20%20%3ca%20href=> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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> Visit ATEG's web si
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 07:10:55 -0700
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> It's not as simple as saying that the students were misinformed. FANBOY is actually an older formulation than FANBOYS, and there's a complex, and by no means unified history of what words are put in the list.
>
> The big problem here is that FANBOYS is not a homogenous list. "And," and "or" are the pure coordinators; "but," and "nor" are still central coordinators but lack a few of the properties of "and" and "or." The other words in the list have some properties of coordinators and some properties of other parts of speech. "For" and "yet" have a number of coordinator qualities, but also differences from the central coordinators. "So" is even more marginal a member, although it does share many similarities with "yet." Those who go with the FANBOY list are merely drawing the line between coordinator and not-coordinator at a different place.
>
> Brett Reynolds has an article on the topic that nicely lays out the problems with either formulation: http://www.teslcanadajournal.ca/index.php/tesl/article/viewFile/1092/911
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 9:43 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Nathalia,
> >
> > One additional trick for approaching this (although Til's "therefore test" is the easiest for most students) is to distinguish coordinating "so" from subordinating "so (that)" -- we don't always say or write the 'that' after the second one, but we can always add it. Using Til's sentences and adding 'that':
> >
> > (Works) I went to bed early so that I could get a good night's sleep
> > (Ick.) It is very hot outside today, so that I'm not going to wear a jacket
> >
> > This won't work, however, if you have ESL students (since it relies on native-speaker instincts) and also becomes less effective if the sentence is long (since readers get hazy on what the earlier part of the sentence was).
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> > Central Michigan University
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Turner, Tildon L. [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:08 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > Hi Nathalia,
> >
> > There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
> > Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Til
> >
> >
> > Til Turner
> > Languages and Literature
> > Northern Virginia Community College
> > www.englishiskillingme.com
> > Ph: 703.323.3269
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Nathalia Hardy
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 10:19:28 -0400
> From: "Prof. Richard Grant WAU" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Students may be more or less aware of their subject, but they are not naturally aware of text. A great deal of textuality occurs at the level of the sentence. Sentences are not independent units. They participate in the construction of text.
>
>
>
> Nicely stated, Craig. And your note about cohesion in texts (and ultimately, coherence) ties this thread together with the recent one about passive voice, which can also serve as a powerful cohesive force.
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 9:57 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
>
>
> One corollary of the fact that “so” is a coordinating conjunction is that a sentence headed by “so” would not, in most cases, be a sentence fragment. (Bill’s “so that” test would apply.)
>
> Any quick look at a corpus would show examples of “so” leading off a sentence. One example I use with my classes is the third paragraph of M. L. King’s “I Have a Dream” speech: “So we are gathered here today to dramatize an appalling condition.” The “so” is meant to characterize the purpose of the gathering as occasioned by everything discussed in the first two paragraphs. (A promise was made by the emancipation proclamation. “But one hundred years later,” the promise still hasn’t been delivered. So….) The second paragraph starts with but, the third with so, and it masterfully fits the relationship between the three units.
>
> I usually get a laugh by differentiating between “a little but” (between two clauses) and “a big but” (between larger chunks of text). Again, if you look at a corpus of texts, you will find plenty of examples. The benefit to pointing this out is that you are calling attention to ways in which successful writers orient a reader to the relationships between sections of text. When we see right through to meaning, the cohesive moves are often invisible. Our job, as I see it, is to make those moves highly visible. Students may be more or less aware of their subject, but they are not naturally aware of text. A great deal of textuality occurs at the level of the sentence. Sentences are not independent units. They participate in the construction of text.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter H. Fries
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:23 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
>
>
> You might also get them to look at how so is used in a corpus (or on the web).
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 11, 2015 at 9:08 PM, Turner, Tildon L. <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Hi Nathalia,
>
> There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
> Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Til
>
>
> Til Turner
> Languages and Literature
> Northern Virginia Community College
> www.englishiskillingme.com
> Ph: 703.323.3269
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html <mailto:ATEG@To%20join%20or%20leave%20this%20LISTSERV%20list,%20please%20visit%20the%20list's%20web%20interface%20at:%20%20%20%20%20%3ca%20href=> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:26:11 -0400
> From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> A wonderful example of coordinating conjunctions at the beginning of
> sentences AND paragraphs is Bruce Catton's "Grant and Lee: A Study in
> Contrasts." They are joiners, after all, and they are a great way to show
> clear relationships between paragraphs, a skill that many students need
> help with.
>
> Don
> Stewart
> writingwhatever.com
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 15:59:19 +0000
> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Karl,
> It shouldn't surprise anyone (though I suspect it will) that not all members of a category are central or prototypical. It is possible to use "fanboys" to signal words that CAN be used as coordinating conjunctions. Put another way, these are terms that can be used in ways that do not subordinate the clause that follows. To me, as I teach it, an independent clause is a clause that does not have a grammatical role within another clause. (It may very well, in a coherent text, be unclear in isolation--semantically subordinate--but nevertheless grammatically independent.) That explains why, contrary to what some teachers preach, sentences can and do start with these conjunctions, especially when they signal a relationship between larger stretches of text.
> Words like "for" and "so" have other uses, for sure. "For" is a common preposition. "So" is a common intensifier. Bill has pointed out the "so that" use of "so." That doesn't mean they can't function in the sense presented through "fanboys," as connectors that convey a sense of grammatical independence and, with that, equal weight.
> I think a great deal of harm comes from teaching that there is a CORRECT way to punctuate and that alternatives to that are ERRORS. I use the term "standard practice" with my students, and certainly "standard practice" is connected to the patterns of advice that show up in the style manuals, including some that have very strong status among copyeditors.
> It could be pointed out, too, that the juncture between coordinate clauses is routinely intonationally marked in speech. "I wanted to go, but my wife said no. " There are, of course, reasons to vary the pattern: "It was raining and the field was muddy, so we called the game." In an example like this, both the absence of a comma before "and" and the presence of a comma before "so" are working to establish a relationship between the parts. In my mind, at least, it is intoned as two part despite the presence of three clauses.
> When I am talking to students, I use the term "standard practice" because knowledge of standard practice is useful, but variations from standard practice are not only licensed, but often called for.
> I wish our standardized tests would dispense with "error." "Which of the following commas conforms to standard practice?" It's easy enough. We can't avoid standard practice, but we shouldn't be constrained by it.
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:11 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> It's not as simple as saying that the students were misinformed. FANBOY is actually an older formulation than FANBOYS, and there's a complex, and by no means unified history of what words are put in the list.
>
> The big problem here is that FANBOYS is not a homogenous list. "And," and "or" are the pure coordinators; "but," and "nor" are still central coordinators but lack a few of the properties of "and" and "or." The other words in the list have some properties of coordinators and some properties of other parts of speech. "For" and "yet" have a number of coordinator qualities, but also differences from the central coordinators. "So" is even more marginal a member, although it does share many similarities with "yet." Those who go with the FANBOY list are merely drawing the line between coordinator and not-coordinator at a different place.
>
> Brett Reynolds has an article on the topic that nicely lays out the problems with either formulation: http://www.teslcanadajournal.ca/index.php/tesl/article/viewFile/1092/911
>
>
> > On Mar 11, 2015, at 9:43 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Nathalia,
> >
> > One additional trick for approaching this (although Til's "therefore test" is the easiest for most students) is to distinguish coordinating "so" from subordinating "so (that)" -- we don't always say or write the 'that' after the second one, but we can always add it. Using Til's sentences and adding 'that':
> >
> > (Works) I went to bed early so that I could get a good night's sleep
> > (Ick.) It is very hot outside today, so that I'm not going to wear a jacket
> >
> > This won't work, however, if you have ESL students (since it relies on native-speaker instincts) and also becomes less effective if the sentence is long (since readers get hazy on what the earlier part of the sentence was).
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> > Central Michigan University
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Turner, Tildon L. [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:08 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > Hi Nathalia,
> >
> > There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
> > Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Til
> >
> >
> > Til Turner
> > Languages and Literature
> > Northern Virginia Community College
> > www.englishiskillingme.com
> > Ph: 703.323.3269
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Nathalia Hardy
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 12:36:40 -0400
> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> The problem of the missing "so" in FANBOYS isn't a product of Common Core
> itself; it may come down to local curriculum choices or any number of other
> things. The Standards aren't "bad," they just fall short in many areas. One
> would have to ask Pearson and ETS about specific assessment content and
> mechanisms...
>
> I've included a few excerpts of the Language Standards below;
> unfortunately, they grow more rather than less ambiguous from grades 9
> through 12.
>
> The blame game is an interesting one, though mostly unproductive. So, the
> consensus is that students enter the university with questionable (at best)
> language skills - do they necessarily leave with better ones? The consensus
> is that poor instruction has left students with "difficulties" they carry
> to college - but many of them leave college as teachers who bring those
> unrepaired difficulties with them (who are then blamed for poor
> instruction, and the wheel of life spins on). Were their "education"
> programs and methods classes of any benefit? The past two student-teachers
> assigned to me *could not* identify the subject and verb of a complex
> sentence. That's much more frightening to me than a 5th grader not knowing
> the variances of "so" in all its glory.
>
> - John
>
>
>
> Language Standards K–5
>
> *Grade 2 students:*
>
> Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and
> usage when writing
>
> or speaking.
>
> a. Use collective nouns (e.g., *group*).
>
> b. Form and use frequently occurring irregular plural nouns (e.g., *feet,
> children, teeth, mice,* *fish*).
>
> c. Use reflexive pronouns (e.g., *myself, ourselves*).
>
> d. Form and use the past tense of frequently occurring irregular verbs
> (e.g., *sat, hid, told*).
>
> e. Use adjectives and adverbs, and choose between them depending on what is
> to be modified.
>
> f. Produce, expand, and rearrange complete simple and compound sentences
> (e.g., *The boy*
>
> *watched the movie; The little boy watched the movie; The action movie was
> watched by the*
>
> *little boy*).
>
> *Grade 5 students:*
>
> a. Explain the function of conjunctions, prepositions, and interjections in
> general and their function in particular sentences.
>
> b. Form and use the perfect (e.g., *I had walked; I have walked; I will
> have walked*) verb tenses.
>
> c. Use verb tense to convey various times, sequences, states, and
> conditions.
>
> d. Recognize and correct inappropriate shifts in verb tense.
>
> e. Use correlative conjunctions (e.g., *either/or, neither/nor*).
>
> *Grade 6 students:*
>
> a. Ensure that pronouns are in the proper case (subjective, objective,
> possessive).
>
> b. Use intensive pronouns (e.g., myself, ourselves).
>
> c. Recognize and correct inappropriate shifts in pronoun number and person.
>
> d. Recognize and correct vague pronouns
>
> (i.e., ones with unclear or ambiguous antecedents).*
>
> e. Recognize variations from standard English in their own and others’
> writing and
>
> speaking, and identify and use strategies to improve expression in
> conventional language.
>
> *Grade 8 students:*
>
> Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in
> general and their
>
> function in particular sentences.
>
> b. Form and use verbs in the active and passive voice.
>
> c. Form and use verbs in the indicative, imperative, interrogative,
> conditional, and subjunctive
>
> mood.
>
> d. Recognize and correct inappropriate shifts in verb voice and mood.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:08 AM, Turner, Tildon L. <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Nathalia,
> >
> > There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always
> > stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or
> > erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY.
> > The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating
> > conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the
> > meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be
> > forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some
> > students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect
> > grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with
> > younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding
> > regarding "so".
> > Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I
> > went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course
> > does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound
> > like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket",
> > which typically does take a comma.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Til
> >
> >
> > Til Turner
> > Languages and Literature
> > Northern Virginia Community College
> > www.englishiskillingme.com
> > Ph: 703.323.3269
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> > [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [
> > [log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my
> > students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and
> > should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of
> > them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are
> > seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic
> > device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding
> > firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Nathalia Hardy
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> John Chorazy
> English III Honors, AP Lit
> Advisor, *Panther Press*
> Pequannock Township High School
> 973.616.6000
>
>
> Noli Timere
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 09:39:12 -0700
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Craig,
>
> I essentially agree with your overall point about the hazards of conceiving error in narrow and absolutist terms, although as to the pedagogy, I think you need to elaborate a bit more so your students don't form a different set of misconceptions. Your formulation of coordinators works to distinguish them from subordinators but not from conjunctive adverbs (thus, however, etc.), which do not subordinate, but which are also normally punctuated differently from coordinators. And while I agree with you that we should be careful about teaching punctuation as if it's given by god, I think most teachers and editors would call ", however," separating two independent clauses a comma splice. This point is relevant to "so" because those who exclude it from the FANBOY(S) list treat "so" as a conjunctive adverb.
>
> When I pointed out the odd status of "so," I was not talking about it in any context other than as a putative coordinator of clauses. My point was that there are differences of opinion with regards to punctuation rules surrounding coordinators, and that those differences had some rational basis in the actual behavior of the words on which people could reasonably differ. FANBOY is the older formulation. It starts showing up in textbooks in the 1950s. FANBOYS doesn't show up until 1970. And there are still people, some on this list, who want "so" introducing a clause to punctuated as an adverb, not a coordinator. The FANBOY students undoubtedly had such a teacher.
>
> This mostly reinforces your point that we need to be very careful about postulating a single standard practice. It's not a wholly useless concept, but it needs to be hedged with important qualifications.
>
> > On Mar 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Karl,
> > It shouldn't surprise anyone (though I suspect it will) that not all members of a category are central or prototypical. It is possible to use "fanboys" to signal words that CAN be used as coordinating conjunctions. Put another way, these are terms that can be used in ways that do not subordinate the clause that follows. To me, as I teach it, an independent clause is a clause that does not have a grammatical role within another clause. (It may very well, in a coherent text, be unclear in isolation--semantically subordinate--but nevertheless grammatically independent.) That explains why, contrary to what some teachers preach, sentences can and do start with these conjunctions, especially when they signal a relationship between larger stretches of text.
> > Words like "for" and "so" have other uses, for sure. "For" is a common preposition. "So" is a common intensifier. Bill has pointed out the "so that" use of "so." That doesn't mean they can't function in the sense presented through "fanboys," as connectors that convey a sense of grammatical independence and, with that, equal weight.
> > I think a great deal of harm comes from teaching that there is a CORRECT way to punctuate and that alternatives to that are ERRORS. I use the term "standard practice" with my students, and certainly "standard practice" is connected to the patterns of advice that show up in the style manuals, including some that have very strong status among copyeditors.
> > It could be pointed out, too, that the juncture between coordinate clauses is routinely intonationally marked in speech. "I wanted to go, but my wife said no. " There are, of course, reasons to vary the pattern: "It was raining and the field was muddy, so we called the game." In an example like this, both the absence of a comma before "and" and the presence of a comma before "so" are working to establish a relationship between the parts. In my mind, at least, it is intoned as two part despite the presence of three clauses.
> > When I am talking to students, I use the term "standard practice" because knowledge of standard practice is useful, but variations from standard practice are not only licensed, but often called for.
> > I wish our standardized tests would dispense with "error." "Which of the following commas conforms to standard practice?" It's easy enough. We can't avoid standard practice, but we shouldn't be constrained by it.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:11 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > It's not as simple as saying that the students were misinformed. FANBOY is actually an older formulation than FANBOYS, and there's a complex, and by no means unified history of what words are put in the list.
> >
> > The big problem here is that FANBOYS is not a homogenous list. "And," and "or" are the pure coordinators; "but," and "nor" are still central coordinators but lack a few of the properties of "and" and "or." The other words in the list have some properties of coordinators and some properties of other parts of speech. "For" and "yet" have a number of coordinator qualities, but also differences from the central coordinators. "So" is even more marginal a member, although it does share many similarities with "yet." Those who go with the FANBOY list are merely drawing the line between coordinator and not-coordinator at a different place.
> >
> > Brett Reynolds has an article on the topic that nicely lays out the problems with either formulation: http://www.teslcanadajournal.ca/index.php/tesl/article/viewFile/1092/911
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 9:43 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Nathalia,
> >>
> >> One additional trick for approaching this (although Til's "therefore test" is the easiest for most students) is to distinguish coordinating "so" from subordinating "so (that)" -- we don't always say or write the 'that' after the second one, but we can always add it. Using Til's sentences and adding 'that':
> >>
> >> (Works) I went to bed early so that I could get a good night's sleep
> >> (Ick.) It is very hot outside today, so that I'm not going to wear a jacket
> >>
> >> This won't work, however, if you have ESL students (since it relies on native-speaker instincts) and also becomes less effective if the sentence is long (since readers get hazy on what the earlier part of the sentence was).
> >>
> >> Bill Spruiell
> >> Central Michigan University
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Turner, Tildon L. [[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:08 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >>
> >> Hi Nathalia,
> >>
> >> There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
> >> Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
> >>
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Til
> >>
> >>
> >> Til Turner
> >> Languages and Literature
> >> Northern Virginia Community College
> >> www.englishiskillingme.com
> >> Ph: 703.323.3269
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >>
> >> I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Nathalia Hardy
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 17:54:46 +0000
> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Karl,
> I am mostly in agreement. Like you, I certainly didn't present what I was saying as the only thing I cover with my students, and I certainly do things differently in a grammar class than I would in a first year writing class than I would in an upper level linguistics course linking writing to language. Even the category of conjunctive adverb isn't well described. What do we do with common introductory adverbs like "next" or "then"? Is anything that ties together two clauses conjunctive? "On the other hand,..." "In other words,..." Neither of those make full sense without the sentences that precede them.
> Systemic functional linguistics gives us the category of "theme," which extends to the first part of the clause that the writer/speaker has control over. "However" and "therefore" are not limited in their slots. I would routinely follow them with commas because they are intonationally "marked." They are thematic choices. So is "as a result."
> If you teach a text focused view of language, all this falls into place.
> Standard texts deal with "conjunctive adverb" in a very limited way, and their stress is on the "correct" practice. Correctness seems such a tawdry target to aim at.
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Craig,
>
> I essentially agree with your overall point about the hazards of conceiving error in narrow and absolutist terms, although as to the pedagogy, I think you need to elaborate a bit more so your students don't form a different set of misconceptions. Your formulation of coordinators works to distinguish them from subordinators but not from conjunctive adverbs (thus, however, etc.), which do not subordinate, but which are also normally punctuated differently from coordinators. And while I agree with you that we should be careful about teaching punctuation as if it's given by god, I think most teachers and editors would call ", however," separating two independent clauses a comma splice. This point is relevant to "so" because those who exclude it from the FANBOY(S) list treat "so" as a conjunctive adverb.
>
> When I pointed out the odd status of "so," I was not talking about it in any context other than as a putative coordinator of clauses. My point was that there are differences of opinion with regards to punctuation rules surrounding coordinators, and that those differences had some rational basis in the actual behavior of the words on which people could reasonably differ. FANBOY is the older formulation. It starts showing up in textbooks in the 1950s. FANBOYS doesn't show up until 1970. And there are still people, some on this list, who want "so" introducing a clause to punctuated as an adverb, not a coordinator. The FANBOY students undoubtedly had such a teacher.
>
> This mostly reinforces your point that we need to be very careful about postulating a single standard practice. It's not a wholly useless concept, but it needs to be hedged with important qualifications.
>
> > On Mar 12, 2015, at 8:59 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Karl,
> > It shouldn't surprise anyone (though I suspect it will) that not all members of a category are central or prototypical. It is possible to use "fanboys" to signal words that CAN be used as coordinating conjunctions. Put another way, these are terms that can be used in ways that do not subordinate the clause that follows. To me, as I teach it, an independent clause is a clause that does not have a grammatical role within another clause. (It may very well, in a coherent text, be unclear in isolation--semantically subordinate--but nevertheless grammatically independent.) That explains why, contrary to what some teachers preach, sentences can and do start with these conjunctions, especially when they signal a relationship between larger stretches of text.
> > Words like "for" and "so" have other uses, for sure. "For" is a common preposition. "So" is a common intensifier. Bill has pointed out the "so that" use of "so." That doesn't mean they can't function in the sense presented through "fanboys," as connectors that convey a sense of grammatical independence and, with that, equal weight.
> > I think a great deal of harm comes from teaching that there is a CORRECT way to punctuate and that alternatives to that are ERRORS. I use the term "standard practice" with my students, and certainly "standard practice" is connected to the patterns of advice that show up in the style manuals, including some that have very strong status among copyeditors.
> > It could be pointed out, too, that the juncture between coordinate clauses is routinely intonationally marked in speech. "I wanted to go, but my wife said no. " There are, of course, reasons to vary the pattern: "It was raining and the field was muddy, so we called the game." In an example like this, both the absence of a comma before "and" and the presence of a comma before "so" are working to establish a relationship between the parts. In my mind, at least, it is intoned as two part despite the presence of three clauses.
> > When I am talking to students, I use the term "standard practice" because knowledge of standard practice is useful, but variations from standard practice are not only licensed, but often called for.
> > I wish our standardized tests would dispense with "error." "Which of the following commas conforms to standard practice?" It's easy enough. We can't avoid standard practice, but we shouldn't be constrained by it.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 10:11 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > It's not as simple as saying that the students were misinformed. FANBOY is actually an older formulation than FANBOYS, and there's a complex, and by no means unified history of what words are put in the list.
> >
> > The big problem here is that FANBOYS is not a homogenous list. "And," and "or" are the pure coordinators; "but," and "nor" are still central coordinators but lack a few of the properties of "and" and "or." The other words in the list have some properties of coordinators and some properties of other parts of speech. "For" and "yet" have a number of coordinator qualities, but also differences from the central coordinators. "So" is even more marginal a member, although it does share many similarities with "yet." Those who go with the FANBOY list are merely drawing the line between coordinator and not-coordinator at a different place.
> >
> > Brett Reynolds has an article on the topic that nicely lays out the problems with either formulation: http://www.teslcanadajournal.ca/index.php/tesl/article/viewFile/1092/911
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 11, 2015, at 9:43 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> Nathalia,
> >>
> >> One additional trick for approaching this (although Til's "therefore test" is the easiest for most students) is to distinguish coordinating "so" from subordinating "so (that)" -- we don't always say or write the 'that' after the second one, but we can always add it. Using Til's sentences and adding 'that':
> >>
> >> (Works) I went to bed early so that I could get a good night's sleep
> >> (Ick.) It is very hot outside today, so that I'm not going to wear a jacket
> >>
> >> This won't work, however, if you have ESL students (since it relies on native-speaker instincts) and also becomes less effective if the sentence is long (since readers get hazy on what the earlier part of the sentence was).
> >>
> >> Bill Spruiell
> >> Central Michigan University
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Turner, Tildon L. [[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:08 AM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >>
> >> Hi Nathalia,
> >>
> >> There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY. The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding regarding "so".
> >> Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket", which typically does take a comma.
> >>
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Til
> >>
> >>
> >> Til Turner
> >> Languages and Literature
> >> Northern Virginia Community College
> >> www.englishiskillingme.com
> >> Ph: 703.323.3269
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [[log in to unmask]]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >>
> >> I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Nathalia Hardy
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
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> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> >> and select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
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> >
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 18:05:46 -0400
> From: nathalia hardy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
>
> Thanks for the suggestions!
>
> I had tried Bill Spruiell's trick, as I was certain that the
> misunderstanding must surround subordinating so (that). I think I am
> reaching them, slowly. Somehow, the combined power of the internet
> backing me up has overcome the Yale education-- hers, not mine.
>
> I truly appreciate the different approaches. I am new to the forum and
> enjoying the discussions.
>
> Best,
> Nathalia
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 12:43 AM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Nathalia,
> >
> > One additional trick for approaching this (although Til's "therefore test"
> > is the easiest for most students) is to distinguish coordinating "so" from
> > subordinating "so (that)" -- we don't always say or write the 'that' after
> > the second one, but we can always add it. Using Til's sentences and adding
> > 'that':
> >
> > (Works) I went to bed early so that I could get a good night's sleep
> > (Ick.) It is very hot outside today, so that I'm not going to wear a
> > jacket
> >
> > This won't work, however, if you have ESL students (since it relies on
> > native-speaker instincts) and also becomes less effective if the sentence
> > is long (since readers get hazy on what the earlier part of the sentence
> > was).
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> > Central Michigan University
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> > [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Turner, Tildon L. [
> > [log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2015 12:08 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > Hi Nathalia,
> >
> > There is no mystery. The students were misinformed. It is always
> > stressful as a teacher to have students who have received inadequate or
> > erroneous instruction of any kind. The mnemonic is FANBOYS not FANBOY.
> > The "S" makes all the difference. "So" is the only coordinating
> > conjunction that indicates material implicature, effectively carrying the
> > meaning of "therefore". In the college setting in which I teach, I can be
> > forceful about blaming poor previous instruction for difficulties some
> > students have and can dissuade them from continuing to use incorrect
> > grammar. I appreciate the fact that you may not have such a luxury with
> > younger students. However, they need to be weaned of the misunderstanding
> > regarding "so".
> > Perhaps the students only think of "so" in its adverbial usage such as: "I
> > went to bed early so I could get a good night's sleep", which of course
> > does not require a comma. They need to become comfortable with a compound
> > like "It is very hot outside today, so I'm not going to wear a jacket",
> > which typically does take a comma.
> >
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Til
> >
> >
> > Til Turner
> > Languages and Literature
> > Northern Virginia Community College
> > www.englishiskillingme.com
> > Ph: 703.323.3269
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> > [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Nathalia Hardy [
> > [log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 8:17 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Compound Sentences and Coordinating Conjunctions
> >
> > I am hoping you could help me solve a bit of a mystery. Some of my
> > students have been taught that "so" is not a coordinating conjunction and
> > should not be used to join two independent clauses. Unfortunately, none of
> > them can explain this other than to say "their teacher said so." These are
> > seventh and eighth grade students. They have been taught the mnemonic
> > device FANBOY to remember the coordinating conjunctions and are holding
> > firm in their "understanding." Am I missing something?
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Nathalia Hardy
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Nathalia S. A. Hardy
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 11 Mar 2015 to 12 Mar 2015 (#2015-22)
> **********************************************************
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