Herb,
Thank you for your thorough reply to my rather off the cuff remarks.
Actually, I wasn't sure the message would be accepted by the ATEG system
since the past few were not. Your explanation of that string of nouns as
compound is better than viewing them as a noun and its modifiers, and the
use of intonation to demonstrate same is very useful. In my vocabulary I use
form words and function words somewhat differently, form words being
inflected, open categories in which we create and then manipulate or shift
them from one form to the other, while function words are the ones that
don't move much, including preps, conj, particles, determiners and so on. Of
course, words are all nouns when we speak of them. No, we don't manipulate
form words into function words, but we really like to mess with them, making
them verbs when we want, adjective functioning when we need to. Some define
colors as homophones, so that we can have different classes of the 'same'
word without a lot of explaining how that can be.
Dick Betting
----- Original Message -----
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: tion & nouns
rbetting,
Some great examples, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. By
"to manipulate form words into other parts of speech," are you referring to
shifts of closed class items like prepositions or conjunctions to other
parts of speech or was this the sort of rapid compositional error I make a
lot of, where you meant one of the two verbs, manipulate or form, but forgot
to delete the other? If you meant rather that "form" is a noun modifying
"words", form words, like prepositions, conjunctions, and determiners, very
rarely shift word class, unlike content words (nouns, adjectives, verbs, and
most adverbs), which can shift fairly readily. Form words are more commonly
called function words.
You answer your own question about calling a modifying noun and adjective by
calling them "nouns used as modifiers." That makes the necessary
form/function distinction. Such a noun is a noun, but it's functioning as a
modifier. That doesn't make it an adjective. Your examples, however, would
generally be treated as compound nouns, not as phrasal constructions.
Notice that "British English" has two primary stresses, but "stocking
committee planning chart" has only one. That's a fairly good marker of the
difference between a noun phrase and a compound noun. An interesting
example that shows some variation in how speakers analyze it is whether one
pronounces TV with the stress pattern of ID or of Stevie. For speakers with
the former pattern, TV is an initialism; for the latter it's a compound or
perhaps simply a new simplex noun.
As to what makes sense to students, I don't think I would raise issues like
this until some bright student asks why "form" in "form word" is a noun if
it's modifying another noun. Then would be a good time to introduce the
form/function distinction. But I'm not a high school teacher and I'm
reluctant to make pedagogical suggestions to those who know that age-group
much better than I do.
I fear I missed what you were getting at with your last remark, about
grammar. Sorry to be dense, but there's a leap here I didn't make as I
read.
Herb,
Comments on noun functions. Does calling nouns used this way adjective make
sense to students? Our linguistic system likes to be able to manipulate form
words into other parts of speech, nouns to verbs and so on. One choice that
appears to be handy is our use of nouns as modifiers, as in "the stocking
committee planning chart" or "a fan belt compression fitting design plan."
So we might hear of a "site plan coordination effort currently underway." I
just read about the " 2007 Devils Lake operation summary report document."
How's this: "The linear realignment task force control system planning
session." That could apply to grammar study.
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