I think the varying amount of grammatical information that dictionaries include tells a lot about the state of grammar education. The fact that there is so much syntax, such as phrasal verbs, that is new to so many, seems to be telling us that the grammatical system of English has neglected this area for far too long. I think the notion that certain strings of verbs are "tenses" is another evidence that the state of grammatical studies is retarded; it shows us the extent to which we have depended so long on traditional treatments. I would maintain that all too much has been and continues to be left to the native English speaker to assume. Herb mentioned lately the voiced/voiceless contrast that even some phoneticians often use for labels that are probably more accurately designated by different terms of articulation: lenis/fortis. There will always be a lag between the academic community and the educators of the children and the lack of single coherent theory to guide the presentation of grammatical principles does not help. The awareness and study of the phrasal verb cannot be help in this process. I think it will lead to a better understanding of how syntax, which is so central to the study of English grammar, needs to be approached. The analogy of the spectrum does not seem to do justice to the structures involved. I believe we need to be open to the possibility that several different constructions are being described, some overlapping in sharing certain parts and serving similar functions. Their relationship to other constructions, such as passive voice, cannot but be like a prism that may well help to lay out their syntactic distinctions.
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 1:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Phrasal Verb Overview
Usually dictionaries for non-native speakers will provide more detail on phrasal verbs than dictionaries for native speakers. The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English and the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary of English are both valuable references and contain a lot of grammatical information that English learners need but native English speakers simply assume.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Beth Young
Sent: 2009-03-24 14:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Phrasal Verb Overview
I've been pondering "depend on" since John's message. Although I teach my students that many of these distinctions range along a spectrum, the process of figuring out a specific example is useful. And fun. :)
In addition to the tests that Dick and Herb mention, there's also the "can it be replaced by a single verb" test, and I couldn't think of a single verb that would replace "depend on." "rely on" also needs the "on."
Another "test" is to check a dictionary. I've noticed that the dictionaries at dictionary.com often disagree on phrasal verbs--with the dictionaries I've heard of (e.g., American Heritage) listing phrasal entries rarely and a dictionary I hadn't heard of ("WordNet" from Princeton) listing many different verb + prepositional combinations as "phrasal verb" entries. (example: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/depend%20on?qsrc=2888 ) Class discussions can get very lively when dictionaries disagree.
Beth
P.S. my unfamiliarity with WordNet surely says more about me than about WordNet itself or dictionary.com
>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 3/24/2009 1:25 PM >>>
One of the tests for a transitive phrasal verb is whether it can be made passive.
Seattle depends heavily on coffee for its economic survival.
Coffee is heavily depended on by Seattle for its economic survival.
Of course, this is not the only test, and the fact that there are a number of different types of phrasal verb indicates that, as with other categories, phrasal verb is also a fuzzy category, just as verbs themselves are, ranging from invariant modals like "must" to full agentive transitive verbs like "hit."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Veit, Richard
Sent: 2009-03-24 10:58
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Phrasal Verb Overview
John,
In your penultimate bullet below, "depend on" does feel like an "inseparable phrasal verb," but there is one bit of evidence that "on" is a true preposition:
*
I depend on coffee.
*
Coffee is a drug on which I depend.
Compare that with a true phrasal verb:
* I gave up coffee.
* *Coffee is a drug up which I gave.
A similar example of a seeming but debatable phrasal verb is "call on" as in "Willy calls on a dozen accounts each day." There are real "inseparable phrasal verbs" such as "come by" ("McDuck came by his wealth honestly"), but I wonder whether "depend on" and "call on" are among them.
I have another question for ATEGers. A phrasal verb typically consists of a verb-word and a preposition-word. But what about those two-word predicates such as "look forward" and "put forth" where the second word is neither a preposition-word nor separable from the verb-word? Do we call them "phrasal verbs" as well?
Dick Veit
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Phrasal Verb Overview
Greetings, ATEGers!
Someone (I believe it was Herb) recently suggested a book to me: Mark Lester's (1990) Grammar in the Classroom. I'm not sure why I haven't discovered this book before, but I quite like it and would suggest it to anyone reviewing grammar texts. Even if you can't use it in your classroom, you and/or your students might enjoy knowing about it as a reference text. I find Lester's writing to be straightforward and uncluttered. Has anyone actually used this as a classroom text for teachers-in-training? If so, I'd be interested to hear about your experiences.
I went to the text specifically to find some more information on phrasal verbs, information that wasn't overly technical for non-linguistic students but also not overly simplified so as to ignore descriptive facts. I thought I'd share here a few of the main points about phrasal verbs that Lester includes.
* Lester suggests that phrasal verbs are part of Latin and Germanic languages' process of creating new words by adding prepositions (functional words) to verb stems. Latin languages tended to add the preposition to the beginning of the verb stem with Germanic languages adding them to the end. (example, "devour" from "de-" (down) and "voro" (swollow) in Latin)
* When English forms a new word by adding a preposition to the beginning of a verb stem (example, "bypass" "offset"), it is more quickly and easily recognized as a new word; people forget that it used to be a phrasal verb/verb +preposition combination because, orthographically, it is written without a space. However, English tends to leave the space when the preposition is added to the end of the verb stem. (example, "give up")
* While a sentence like "I give up" may look like a pronoun, a tensed verb, and an adverbial preposition, it is in fact a pronoun and a phrasal verb (note: I always learned to call the preposition that has become attached to a verb in such a way a "particle," but Lester continues to call it a preposition, which doesn't bother me at all). Lester points out a fun test for phrasal verbs -- can you replace the unit with a single word (almost always of Latin origin) and retain the meaning? In this case, "I give up" becomes "I surrender." (Lester points out the irony in the fact that "surrender" was once itself a phrasal verb in Latin!)
* Phrasal verbs can be transitive; this can mark the difference between a phrasal verb and a verb+preposition combo even more. For example,
John turned out the light. (Noun subject+phrasal verb+noun phrase object)
John turned at the light. (Noun subject+verb+adverbial prepositional phrase)
Say the sentences out loud and notice the stress. In phrasal verbs the preposition is stressed while it is not in the PP.
* Phrasal verbs can have more than one preposition/particle: look down on, talk back to, walk out on, etc.
* Lester points out that phrasal verbs were dumped from traditional school grammars because the word "preposition" in Latin literally means "to place before," and it was reasoned that prepositions couldn't be connected to verbs if they came after them. Sometimes phrasal verbs were treated as idioms.
* Structural linguists have noted the difference between separable and inseparable phrasal verbs.Separable phrasal verbs have prepositions that can be moved to a position after the object noun phrase (example, "I gave up the game" vs "I gave the game up" or "I gave it up"). Inseparable phrasal verbs have prepositions that cannot be moved (example, "I depend on the income" vs *"I depend the income on" or *"I depend it on").
* As you can see from the above examples, when the object of a separable transitive phrasal verb is a pronoun, the movement of the preposition is obligatory. You would always say "I gave it up" and never *"I gave up it." (I think I would cringe if I heard this avoided with some clunky construction like, "Up it is that I gave it.") In this sense, it is actually ungrammatical to NOT end a sentence with a preposition.
Hope all the grammar nerds enjoy this as much as I did!
Regards,
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
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