Thank you. It actually is an informal post. I guess I was concerned with 1) comma splices and 2) is the second dash always necessary?
--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 8/13/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2014, 11:47 AM
I'd say it's a matter of
register. It's certainly not formal academic
writing. The average freshman comp instructor would
probably label it a sentence fragment. Hoowever, in
dialog or in informal writing of other sorts it strikes me
as both grammatical and apt. It has a clear
topic-comment structure. Before the dash is background
information, and after the dash is the predicate.
Omission of subject pronoun and Be verb is a marker of
informal, casual style.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2014 10:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
write me some music about"
Herbert,
Please help with the following:
Is this grammatically wrong?
"Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready
for this day to be over."
Thanks!
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics:
"I'm gonna write me some music about"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
<[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
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I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
As one who began his lin= guistic life doing
field work on languages he knew little about, I'm
sensit= ive to the influence a standard orthography
has on our analyses. Suppose y= ou were doing
field work on English with no orthography and little
other in= formation to rely on--or be misled by.
When you hear /aimn@go/ you would b= y
no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am
going to go." Rather= , you'd identify the
first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
perhaps=
marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly
have doubts about that=
conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future
or intentional marker wor= thy of considerably
more research. Maybe, after comparing a number of
dial= ects you might come up with a historical
internal reconstruction that relat= ed the form
to "am going to," but that would have about as much
bearing on = your synchronic grammatical description
as the equally historical discovery=
that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are
the same thing.
I fear sometimes that the extent to which our
descriptions look like our or= thography or our
grammatical traditions, they are not evidence-based.
The = fact is that the results of grammaticalization
are frequently not recoverab= le except by
diligent study by trained grammarians; they remain
opaque to n= ormal native speakers.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]
DU> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm
gonna write me some musi= c about"
Bob,
Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process
directly related to frequency. = Since =93going to=94
can now combine in auxiliary like ways with main
verbs= , its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency
of use correlates well with = phonetic
reduction. It=92s an observation about how language
shifts in form=
as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to
has expanded range of use = in the same way. The
same patterns are at work in its reduction.The
consens= us seems to be that it has modal like
qualities.
Biologists make observations about form all the
time without thinking o= f life itself as a formal
system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent
= of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of
biology, the two are dynamica= lly connected. No
one would argue (scientifically) that biological forms
ar= e independent of function and no one would propose
that forms are unimporta= nt.
In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw
strict clear lines between=
categories in part because adaptation is constant.
Bybee=92s point=97and s=
he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is
more like biology t= han it is like physics and
chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed
inter= est in empirical observation. This is certainly
not a retreat from form.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm
gonna write me some musi= c about"
I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014
=FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we
get with 'gonna' and=
oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't
say "I'm gonna New Yor= k" for "I'm going to New
York," but we do say "I'm gonna take the train to
= New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it
for expressions of intention=
and prediction, which are modal in function. This
would be a good formal a= rgument for "going to"
functioning as a constituent group when modal
functi= ons are carried out, but not for physical
movement: going plus to New York.
Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not
a formal system, yet = he just made a formal
distinction between =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going
=
to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing
with two different to= =92s. The to in =93going
to=94 marks a verb and the to in making a
locatio= n is a preposition.
By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
--_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
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style=3D"font-size:12pt;color:#000000;backgro=
und-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;">
<p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
As one who began=
his linguistic life doing field work on languages he
knew little about, I'= m sensitive to the
influence a standard orthography has on our analyses.
&n= bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on
English
with no orthography and little other information to
rely on--or be misled = by. When you
hear /aimn@go/ you would by
no stretch of the imaginatio= n connect that to
"I am going to go."
Rather, you'd identif= y the first person
singular subject pronoun, the /m/
perhaps marking progressive aspect (although
you'd properly have doub= ts about that
conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or
intention= al marker worthy of considerably more
research.
Maybe, after comparin=
g a number of dialects you might come up with
a historical internal reconstruction that related the
form to "am goi= ng to," but
that would have about as much bearing on your
synchronic g= rammatical description as the equally
historical discovery that the -t of &=
quot;height" and the -th of
"width" are the same
thing. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which
our descriptions look like our=
orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are
not evidence-based. &n= bsp;The fact is that
the results of grammaticalization are frequently not
r= ecoverable except by diligent study by
trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal
native speakers.<br> </p>
<p><br> </p>
<p>Herb <br> </p>
<div> <p><br> </p>
<p><br> </p> <div
class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke,
Ph.D.<br> Emeritus Professor of
English<br> Ball State
University<br> Muncie, IN
47306<br> [log in to unmask]</div>
</font></div> </div> <div
style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);"> <hr
tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block;
width:98%"> <div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg"
dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif"
co= lor=3D"#000000"
style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
Assembly for the Teac=
hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
on behalf of Hanc= ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13
AM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax
& Semantics: "I'm gonna wr= ite me
some music about"</font>
<div> </div> </div>
<div> <div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">
Phon= etic reduction is a dynamic process directly
related to frequency. Since = =93going to=94 can
now combine in auxiliary like ways with main verbs,
its = use
has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use
correlates well with phonetic = reduction.
It=92s an observation about how language shifts in
form as it ta= kes on new (expanded) function.
<i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in
the same way. The same patterns=
are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to
be that it has modal l= ike
qualities.</span></p> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">
Biol= ogists make observations about form all the time
without thinking of life i= tself as a formal
system. What we need, I think, is the equivalent of
an
anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the
two are dynamically c= onnected. No one would
argue (scientifically) that biological forms are
ind= ependent of function and no one would propose
that forms are unimportant.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">  =
;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict
clear lines between ca= tegories in part because
adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s point=97and
she= =92s not the
only one making it=97is that language is more like
biology than it is like=
physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a
renewed interest in empiric= al observation.
This is certainly not a retreat from form.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i= n 0in
0in"> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Assemb=
ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16
PM<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax
& Semantics: "I'm gonna wr= ite me
some music about"</span></p>
</div> </div> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div> <div> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the
following observation from Craig.<=
/span></p> </div>
<div> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
Mail</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid
#E5E5E5 1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i= n 0in
0in"> <div> <p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
uot;sans-serif";
letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
style=3D"=
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
letter-spacing:.25p=
t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
Craig G</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD,
=FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0= 6=FD
=FDPM<br> <b>To:</b> <a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_par=
ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span
style=3D"font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
<p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
quot;,"sans-serif";
color:black">As Bybee points out,
t</span></e= m><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
co=
lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get
with 'gonna' and oughtta' i= s typical
of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm
gonna New York" for &qu= ot;I'm
going to New York," but we do say
"I'm gonna take the trai= n to New
York" or "It's gonna rain."
We only use it for expr= essions of intention and
prediction, which are modal in function. This
woul= d
be a good formal argument for "going
to" functioning as a consti= tuent
group when modal functions are carried out, but not
for physical move=
ment:
<em><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
going</span></em> plus <em><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
quot;sans-serif"">to New
York</span></em>. </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";
color:black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if
I understand Craig correctly= , language is not
a formal system, yet he just made a formal distinction
be= tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going
to=94 location. It seems
to me that we are dealing with two different
to=92s. The to in = =93going to=94
marks a verb and the to in making a
location is a&= nbsp;preposition.
</span></p> <p
style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";
color:black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By
the way, gonna reduction is = also
reflected in wanna.
</span></p> <p
style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";
color:black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob
Yates, University of Central Mis=
souri </span></p>
</div> </div> </div>
</div> </div> </div>
</div> </body> </html>
--_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_--
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