Scott,

Thank you for pointing out the fact that languages differ in how they treat 
the same phenomena.  This is a very crucial point that we sometimes want to 
ignore when we do an analysis.  Another important facet is that there is 
always more to discover in that enormous interface between the grammatical 
elements made available by our language and the semantic elements of meaning 
coming out of our multitudinous interpretations and understandings.  There 
were a number of comparative studies that came out in the 70's treating the 
phonology of  certain languages over and against English that were very 
helpful to the ESL teacher.  I think some of this kind of work should be 
made available in the area of semantics and I would have enjoyed reading 
your thesis.  Maybe there are many other works out there like yours that 
would contribute to such an effort.

Bruce

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Plurality in nouns; was ATEG Digest - 3 Nov 2007 to 4 Nov 2007 
(#2007-153)


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest 
> system
> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 12:03 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 3 Nov 2007 to 4 Nov 2007 (#2007-153)
>
> There are 7 messages totalling 734 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
>  1. modals and tense (7)
>
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date:    Sat, 3 Nov 2007 22:13:54 -0600
> From:    "Bruce D. Despain" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: modals and tense
>
> Peter,
>
> I have an issue with English grammar as it is normally taught.  We seem to
> have a double standard.  We think nothing of teaching that common nouns 
> have
>
> a plural in -s and that this means "more than one."  But then we teach 
> about
>
> the exceptions where the plural has a different form or that the plural 
> has
> a meaning of "one" as in "news" to refer to information.  Then there is 
> the
> difference in meaning between "pennies" and "pence" or between "peas" and
> "pease."  Some of these are not the best examples, but my point here is 
> that
>
> the difference between singular and plural is on two dimensions:
> morphological and semantic, and the two are not always in parallel.  The
> Chinese trying to learn English can probably give better examples 
> (contrast:
>
> "wheat" vs. "oats").
>
> Bruce--
> One of the reasons for our problems with teaching issues concerning
> plurality is that most educated speakers of a standard English learned 
> usage
> from their parents--not from a book; e.g., the distinction in usage 
> between
> 'some' and 'any' is extraordinarily complex.  After teaching a few ESOL
> classes in the late '50s/early '60s, I attempted to find a satisfactory
> explanation to distinguish mass nouns--which can be pluralized only by a
> counter--and count nouns which take a variety of plural forms but which
> primarily are -s and -es [how to decide was well covered when I went to
> school].  Because I could not find a suitable text for an ESCL class, I
> wrote my doctoral dissertation on Discrepant subcategorization of nouns in
> English and Spanish.  I had to develop a matrix to distinguish between 
> count
> nouns,mass nouns, and limited count nouns (those that can be pluralized 
> but
> not counted).  I did not find one for Spanish either so I developed a 
> matrix
> for Spanish also.  I focused on instances in which Spanish and English had
> different assignments for similar words.
> I have not perused the literature since 1982 when I graduated; someone may
> have written a book by now that covers the subject adequately.
> Scott
>
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> 

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