I can't come to the conference--my daughter is getting married two weeks
later and the reception is in my house and yard and I am doing the food! I
will actually enjoy this most of the time!
Back to the conference: Michael may be coming; he is researching the
possibility! I think the book will be ready by then, but barely, so I don't
know if he will have copies yet. He will at least bring the address for
getting a desk copy.
Edith
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 7:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar and Literature -- Help Please
Edith,
Thanks for your response. I think you're probably right regarding sentence
combining, but I haven't enough experience with the teaching of this in
connection with writing to be sure. I was only saying that the improvement
of writing is not THE purpose behind grammar instruction.
I am curious about your new book. Will you have sample copies at the
conference this summer?
Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: Wollin, Edith <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: Grammar and Literature -- Help Please
> Paul,
> Sentence combining combined with grammar instruction really does help
> improve student writing. I think it works even better than teaching
sentence
> combining alone, but I really have no control groups to prove that. You
are
> also right that learning grammar also improves critical thinking.
Students
> in the class that teaches sentence combining and grammar also report that
> they read better, as I have already reported here. If you want to see more
> about teaching sentence combining and grammar together--and we hope as an
> adjunct to a composition course--see the book that Michael Kischner and I
> have just finished, the one that Michael mentioned on this list earlier
this
> week. We wrote the book for a freshman level, but it should also work for
> 12th grade and maybe even 11th, depending on the students. Parts of it
could
> work for lower grades too.
>
> Edith Wollin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul E. Doniger [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 4:47 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Grammar and Literature -- Help Please
>
>
> Bill McCleary responded to Ed Vavra's interesting, though troubling post,
> with the following suggestion:
>
> >. I looked in vain for someone to tell Susan to sit
> > down with her son and a draft of the paper, go through about half of it
> > with him to show how punctuation should be corrected, and challenge him
to
> > correct the rest on his own. Then she can check over the rest, discuss
the
> > corrections with her son, and go from there. (Or, if she regards this as
> > giving her son too much help--a form of cheating, perhaps--she could
work
> > with final drafts that have already been graded by the child's teacher.)
>
> But Bill also rightly notes that:
>
> > This approach is labor-intensive but probably will work if there is a
> > decent amount of rapport between child and parent--or student and
teacher,
> > as the case may be.
>
> And here lies the heart of the problem for most of us. With many 6-12
> English teachers lavishly loaded with 100-120 students on average (some
with
> more ... in my first year, I had 160 students in five classes, Mon-Fri!),
> the 1-on-1 conference approach becomes almost impossible. Add to this the
> requirement to "cover" an overweaningly large umbrella-curriculum (you
know,
> writing, literature, vocabulary, listening, speaking, and even the dreaded
> "g" word), and you can take take the word 'almost' out of my previous
> sentence. Most of us are also required to spend a good deal of time and
> energy on preparing our students for standardized, high-stakes tests, like
> the SAT (here in Connecticut, we have the CAPT, which is now big business
> and entrenched in the system). Now add one more ingredient to this
> hash-recipe: we get a mere 40-45 minutes a day (on average) to teach these
> materials to (often jaded) students who are already overwhelmed with four
or
> five other academics and 2-3 electives. This sort of prescription leaves
me
> amazed when I find that some students actually DO learn; some even become
> excited about one or two subjects, too. How can anyone assess the value of
> teaching grammar under these conditions, however?
>
> I would also add, as I have said before, that the improvement of writing
> skills is NOT the purpose of grammar instruction, anyway. Research studies
> that focus on grammar in such a small context make me very suspicious.
What
> about the potential value of grammar instruction on improving reading
> skills? What about the study of grammar to improve critical or creative
> thinking skills? What about it merely as a discrete study of language for
> its own sake? The research studies in question do not begin to address
these
> issues.
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
> P.S. Incidently, I do sincerely agree with Ed and Bill that the
traditional
> "work-sheet" or "kill-and-drill" approach stinks. I just don't think that
> we've really focused on the best reasons FOR teaching grammar yet -- let
> alone how best to teach it.
>
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