Eduard,
You wrote:
Do you know of any forum where people discuss language and grammar in
an informed, and scholarly manner, free of provincialism and myths?
ATEG is such a forum, or has been till recently.
Herb
On Fri, 17 Mar 2006, Craig Hancock wrote...
>---------------------------- Original Message -----------------------
----=
>-
> I'm forwarding another thoughtful post from Johanna.
> I think polemical positions are less dangerous when expressed
(I'm
>thinking of Eduard's post), but that's in part because they provoke
>fine articulations like those I'm relaying. ATEG brings people
>together from different places. Johanna raises important issues
about
>mutual respect and collegiality.
>
>Craig
>
>
>
>Subject: Re: Language Change
>From: "Johanna Rubba" <[log in to unmask]>
>Date: Fri, March 17, 2006 2:35 pm
>To: "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]>
>Cc: [log in to unmask]
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
----=
>-
>
>Hi, Craig,
>
>Although my take on these "polemics" is different from yours, I hope
>you'll post this. I don't find these polemics at all delightful. To
>treat baseless claims about language as legitimate opinions is
harmful
>and misleading to those listers who haven't had the opportunity to
>study language deeply.
>
>I'd like to ask Eduard Hanganu to please study the situation a little
>more carefully before he starts throwing around offensive claims
about
>Americans and linguists, etc. It's just plain rude to call the
>findings (note I do not say "beliefs") of lifelong scholars of
language
>NONSENSE. Putting the words in caps is not exactly diplomatic.
>
>Eduard's ethnocentrism is obvious, and his claims about language and
>linguistics are spurious. It's about time he realized that he is in
>dialogue with scholars, like Herb Stahlke, whose knowledge of many
>aspects of English and language in general is extraordinary and far
>outstrips my own. Eduard is speaking anecdotally from his own
>experience, as well as drawing in studies that are irrelevant to how
>much speakers _subconsciously_ know about their language. A lot of
this
>knowledge is laid out in, for example, the Quirk et al. grammar of
>English and the newer Huddleston and Pullum. I'd like to ask Eduard
how
>many school or college textbooks cover even 1% of that material, and
>yet it is drawn from descriptions of the use of English by English
>speakers (some with a lot of education, some not). I'd also like to
ask
>him how far he has read into either book. The fact that he appeals to
>institutions like the Academie Fran=E7aise (yes, a few of us know
about
>it) proves his misunderstanding of sociolinguistics and the history
of
>how such institutions arise in stratified societies. Those who
believe
>in such institutions have a serious misunderstanding of how language
>works. It's very practical to cultivate a lingua franca (or dialect
>franca?) to sustain communication across the boundaries of speech
>communities. (I don't like calling it a standard dialect anymore,
>because "standard" is ambiguous between a neutral interpretation,
such
>as standard measurements, and an evaluative stance, such as "standard
>of excellence".) But there is no need to attach false claims to such
a
>language variety. It is not superior to other dialects. It may be so
in
>the sense that it has a large vocabulary, but that is a historical
>accident. Any language's vocabulary can be expanded. One might indeed
>say that English came about most of those words dishonestly -- too
>weak to invent them themselves, English speakers took them from other
>"superior" languages like Latin and Greek. Many languages and
dialects
>have more subtlety in their grammar than "preferred" English does.
They
>express distinctions such as remote vs. recent past and temporary vs.
>long-lasting states in the verb system (both characteristics of
African
>American English), not in separate phrases. English morphology is
>"impoverished" compared to, say Turkish or Inuktitut. Such
comparisons
>are fruitless. Are the complex verb systems better than the separate
>phrases? Can Inuktitut express a wider range of meanings than
English?
>There's more than one way to skin a cat.
>
>Every culture, literate or not, has a language that has the full
>potential to express whatever concepts the culture comes up with.
This
>has been true for many thousands of years, well before Romania spoke
>Romanian and those TWO THOUSAND years of history got started. America
>has a history going back at least TEN THOUSAND years of indigenous
>languages that are as complex and beautiful as a particle
accelerator.
>Funny how most of them were never written. I wonder how much Eduard
>knows about Navajo verbs or Mikasuki tone systems. The history of
>literacy and scholarship of a culture has nothing to do with the
>quality or expressive potential of its language.
>
>I am in full agreement with Eduard on one thing -- the level of
general
>and specific world knowledge, not language, is abysmal in far too
many
>parts of the United States. This can't all be blamed solely on the
>schools, and it has nothing at all to do with language. We have a
>fundamentally anti-intellectual culture (which is ironic, given that
>the country was founded by intellectuals of a high order). People are
>happy with their MacDonald's bread and their NFL circuses (get the
>reference to ancient Rome?) Those who have the resources to improve
the
>schools (taxpayers, the government, and the hyper-rich corporations
and
>stockholders) choose to invest that money elsewhere or keep it to
>themselves. They also choose, often for purely political reasons, to
>ignore the wisdom of those who study language for a living. Too many
of
>them have Eduard's understanding of language. As a result, millions
of
>children are essentially thrown into the garbage bin -- prison,
>permanent low-wage jobs, low standards of living, poor health care,
the
>list goes on and on. Back in the late 1970's, an experiment was
carried
>out in which African American children were taught reading in a
program
>that transitioned them from books in their native dialect on themes
>familiar to them to the "preferred" English texts used in general
>language arts instruction. Those children made six months' gain in
>reading ability in four months of using the program, and tested just
>fine on a national standardized reading test for their grade level.
The
>publisher (I believe it was Houghton-Mifflin) decided not to market
the
>program because of the stigma of African American English. What do we
>say to the many thousands of children who never got to benefit from
>such a program? They become dropouts, gang members, prisoners, teen
>parents, and many of them die at an early age thanks to the violence
in
>their communities. The public school system teaches middle-class
>children to read and write in their native dialect. Why are they the
>only ones deserving of this treatment? (In telling this story, I am
not
>acceding to the superiority of "preferred English". The
>socially-determined facts on the ground are that children need to be
>fluent in this dialect to have equal opportunity. The point is that
it
>is not necessary -- indeed it is harmful -- to endow that dialect
with
>some kind of intellectual superiority.)
>
>This list is intended for civilized discussion. It is of no benefit
to
>make baseless claims and insult whole populations. It is not in the
>spirit of the list to be rude. I realize that I may have crossed that
>line myself in this message, but perhaps the same tone is needed to
>bring the point home. Or perhaps Eduard is like far too many people
>engaging in "debate" today under the guise of "fair and balanced"
>public discussion, who simply will never admit that they are wrong
>about something no matter how many facts you throw at them.
>
>Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
>Linguistics Minor Advisor
>English Department
>California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
>E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>Tel.: 805.756.2184
>Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
>Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
>URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>
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