TJ,
Thanks. I didn't trust my memory on this one. It's interesting that
"shall" and "should" have separated quite a bit in meaning.
It's hard for me to think of "will" and "shall" as "future tense" when
all of the modals can be used in reference to future time.
"I will go." "I shall go." "I may go." "I might go." "I should go." "I
must go." I could go." "I can go." "I would go." "I have to go." "I
ought to go." "I am going to go." I think all of these would be
interpreted as judgements about an event (or possible event) which
hasn't happened yet.
Again, though, I think classifications are less important than the
complex world of language we are attempting to classify. If you look
at the way these modal forms work in action, they are typically giving
present time judgements about something that hasn't occurred yet.
"Will" is more definitive than "may," but they are both present time
(time of the telling) predictions. Any study of the language should
acknowledge that "shall" and "will" are much like the other modals.
Craig>
Craig,
> The OE infinitive of "shall" was sculan. Its preterite form was
> scolde.
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Monday 06/06/2011 at 7:35 am, Craig Hancock wrote:
>> Gregg,
>> The spelling I am used to seeing is "deontic" and "epistemic"
>> for any
>> of you who want to do more research.
>> My Old English is very rusty and the books are in Albany, but
>> "shall"
>> derived from a verb meaning something like "be obligated, owe." It
>> actually grammaticalized earlier than "will" (from "willan"? to want?
>> Someone can correct me on that one.) "Cunnan" meant "know". "Magan"
>> meant "have power". For a very good source on grammaticalization, I
>> would recommend Joan Bybee's "Language, Usage, and Cognition"
>> (Cambridge, 2010).
>> These modals invert with the subject to form questions, take a
>> negative
>> directly after, and don't have a third person inflection for present
>> tense. They have also lost their ability to act as the main verb in a
>> sentence.
>> You raise a controversial issue that relates to our belief in
>> whether
>> grammar is innately wired into the brain or is socially semiotic,
>> growing in interaction with other language users over a lifetime. If
>> grammar is wired in, then there isn't (can't be?) a large difference
>> between reading/writing and speaking beyond what it takes to represent
>> language in graphic form and learn the largely arbitrary graphic
>> conventions that arrive with that. If grammar evolves in social
>> interaction, then we might expect a far more complex (or lexically
>> dense) grammar to evolve within written registers, especially within
>> technical fields. I believe the latter is the case, which means we
>> have an obligation to understand those differences and help mentor our
>> students along the path toward competence in those registers. This is
>> difficult these days precisely because knowledge about language has
>> been undervalued for several decades.
>> The great value (and occasional frustration) of ATEG is that
>> participants bring different perspectives to the table. These views
>> are certainly not shared by everyone in the group.
>>
>> Craig
>> >
>>
>>
>> Bill & Craig & Kathleen,
>>>
>>> Bill, I love how terms of obligation are put so politely. And,
>>> Craig, thank you for including Kathleen's reference to deonatic use
>>> and epistemical use of modals. Anyone stepping into the ATEG pool
>>> soon discovers the waters there run very deep, indeed.
>>> But I want to get back to some of what was offered by Craig in terms
>>> of modals. Craig, you say, "All the pure modals were once main
>>> verbs. . ." Do you have any instances of their use in this manner?
>>> I have no doubt that you are correct.
>>> I also appreciate that you add that now they "serve to ground a
>>> statement within the judgement of the speaker." Too often we miss
>>> point of view. But this reminds me of something I have barely read,
>>> Constructions at Work by Adele E. Goldberg, writing about argument
>>> structure constructions. This reminds me of another work I have read
>>> from beginning to end, Endangered Minds by Jane M. Healy, in which
>>> she writes that forms of language that contain "more complex
>>> grammatical devices are called elaborated codes. Those conveying
>>> ideas without such complex grammatical structures are called
>>> restricted codes and are the ones viewed as more 'primitive.'" She
>>> claims that, unless 'literature is carefully taught by a skilled
>>> teacher who knows how to make the text come alive and who is able to
>>> make the huge time commitment to help students with unfamiliar
>>> vocabulary, grammar, and voice, I can tell you what many kids do--
>>> they simply don't read it. Instead, they continue to practice--and
>>> to embed in their brains--language that some linguists refer to quite
>>> descriptively as 'primitive.'"
>>> John R. Searle writes in Making The Social World that language not
>>> only moves from identifying real things to identifying imaginary
>>> things (and metaphors connected to real things) to conceptualizations
>>> (that are approached through metaphor), but it also creates a new
>>> reality through laws that show themselves to be real in that they
>>> entail punishment and create jobs for those who carry out those
>>> punishments--which brings us back to Bill's reference to "shall,"
>>> where "the party of the first part" shall carry out a certain act or
>>> be subject to punishment. Thus, we move beyond the being "primitive"
>>> in our use of language.
>>> This shows how important grammarians are to educators. And it shows
>>> why language seems so intimidating to our students. They sense its
>>> power to create the social world that has grown out of the natural
>>> world in which language first evolved.
>>> Shall the world ever recognize the worth of the grammarian? Time
>>> will tell. Meanwhile, I hope to hear more about how these modals
>>> became conceptual shells encasing our words with judgment.
>>>
>>> Gregg
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 5, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect at least some of the motivation for "shall" in this
>>>> statement is the statement's status as a fulfillment of a legal
>>>> requirement. "Shall" isn't just (very) formal in American English,
>>>> it's heavily associated with legal and pseudo-legal genres (like
>>>> bylaws). Ask someone to imitate legalese, and "shall" will
>>>> typically show up right alongside "party of the first part" and
>>>> "make known and publish." I think OSHA requires a sign like that,
>>>> although I don't think the "shall" part is mandatory (if it's not
>>>> OSHA, then it's just about every state government in the country).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- Bill Spruiell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 10:09 PM, Kathleen Ward <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've always heard it called the deonatic use ofnthe modal --
>>>> something
>>>> that imposes an obligation on the hearer of an utterance. It
>>>> is a
>>>> characteristic of modals in English that they have both
>>>> deonatic and
>>>> epistemically (degree of certainty) uses.
>>>>
>>>> Kathleen M. Ware.
>>>>
>>>> University of California, Davis
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Saturday, June 4, 2011, Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Friends have just returned from their annual pilgrimage to
>>>>> Ashland, Oregon, and on one flight they saw a sign in the flight
>>>>> attendants' area that said, "Hands shall be washed before serving
>>>>> food or drink."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is this use of "shall" called?
>>>>>
>>>>> Jane Saral
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface at:
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>>>> web interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
