Joan II, succeeded her own mother, Mahaut, Countess of Artois, as ruler of
Artois in 1329. Margaret's elder sister Joan, Duchess of Burgundy (1308-49)
inherited the county when their mother died in 1329, becoming Countess of
Artois and Palatine Countess of Burgundy. [Note that the County and the
Duchy of Burgundy were and remained separate even when governed as a unit by
the same ruler, be he count or king: The Duchy became known as
Franche-Compte.]
The "century and a half" refers to the time span from A.D. 1180 when
Isabelle of Hainaut married King Philip II of France and brought the county
of Artois as her dowry, to the alienation of Burgundy in 1329.
The 330 years refer to the period from 1329 to 1569--the date of the census
of the Spanish Netherlands and is an error for 340 years. I rounded off
time spans between pertinent dates to the nearest decade. In responding to
the historical criticism, I realized that I had condensed my historical
record too far: four pages into one paragraph. I will emend the historical
record to specify the 1329 date and will correct the 330 to 340.
As for my question, I think that Herb has hit the nail on the head and that
'was' for the remote past--occurring before the time of the past perfect
action--is what I meant to say but I could not put my finger on why I felt
that I should replace 'had been' with 'was.' Now it is clear to me.
Thanks to Herb and all other commenters.
Scott
The actual paper is "Given names and name formations in 16th century
Artois." It is a paper for onomastician--not historians: the history is
bu to show the perseverance of the French names and naming conventions
during centuries in which France exercised no political; control. When time
Joan inherited the 'apanage'--similar to a fief--but, by 1329, without
feudal responsibilities, Burgundy (including Artois) were effectively
politically separated from France, allowing inheritance by Hapsburgs in
Austria, then in Spain.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
THL Colm Dubh
Herald Extraordinaire
Ensign Herald, Trimaris
Apprentice to Master Finn Normansson, Baron Seleone
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2010 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 20 Jan 2010 to 21 Jan 2010 (#2010-4)
There are 9 messages totalling 1224 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. word definitions (4)
2. Past perfect?
3. Scott's Past Perfect
4. Passive errors (3)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 08:28:44 -0800
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: word definitions
In a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the topic =
--0-1085016564-1264091324=:41597
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,=0A=0AIn a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the topic =
of audible non-verbal discourse markers came up, specifically, the nasalize=
d sounds often written as "uh-huh" and "hhm." We discussed the meanings of =
these and how they generally had a clear meaning to the speaker and the hea=
rer. =A0A student asked if these were words, and I realized that I wasn't r=
eally sure.=A0 What makes these either words or not words? We also discusse=
d body language and facial expressions and how some of these had a clear me=
aning to most people who saw them. In what ways are these fundamentally dif=
ferent from the physical movements used in ASL, for instance, which can be =
considered words? =0A=0AThanks,=0AScott Woods=0A=0A=0A
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--0-1085016564-1264091324=:41597
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;=
font-size:12pt"><DIV>Dear List,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>In a discu=
ssion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the topic of audible non-verbal disc=
ourse markers came up, specifically, the nasalized sounds often written as =
"uh-huh" and "hhm." We discussed the meanings of these and how they general=
ly had a clear meaning to the speaker and the hearer. A student asked=
if these were words, and I realized that I wasn't really sure. What =
makes these either words or not words? We also discussed body language and =
facial expressions and how some of these had a clear meaning to most people=
who saw them. In what ways are these fundamentally different from the phys=
ical movements used in ASL, for instance, which can be considered words? </=
DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>=0A<DIV>Scott Woods</DIV><!-- =
cg8.c2.mail.ac4.yahoo.com compressed/chunked Fri Jan 15 06:08:16 PST 2010 -=
-></div><br>=0A=0A </body></html>
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--0-1085016564-1264091324=:41597--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:17:42 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Past perfect?
Scott, Herb,
Maybe some history is in order. If the discussion is relating to the 1569 =
tax roll, the Spanish were in control. This state of control, which began =
in 1556, could easily be conceived of as occurring in the past (relative to=
today). I'm not sure that we would call it French control before that tim=
e, however: 1384-1477 (Dukes of Burgundy), 1477-1482 (Archduke of Austria),=
1482-1506 (Dukes of Burgundy), 1506-1556 (Holy Roman Empire). The French =
control must be relative to some time period after the Spanish controlled i=
t in 1579, and that latter control virtually ended with Louis XIV assuming =
the Spanish succession 1702-1714. It became part of Belgium when that count=
ry rebelled in 1830. French control was thus at longest from 1702 to 1830.=
The 330 years previous to 1702 would have been 1472, so it is still foggy=
to me what is being referred to with that time span.=20=20
I do not understand why someone would want to use "remote past" tense in an=
y written work relating to a 1569 tax roll. The temporal stance seems to h=
ave been 1830, clearly in the past. Such a stance would suggest the use of=
a past perfect aspect of the traditional Latinate grammar.=20=20
Bruce
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 9:13 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Past perfect?
Scott,
As always with tense and aspect questions, a little more context might clar=
ify the sentence. Certainly "was" would work in the first clause, but the =
choice between "was" and "had been" depends also on the writer's perspectiv=
e on the time of these states or events. If the writer's temporal stance i=
s the time of the second clause, 330 years previous, then the past perfect =
may say what he wants to say. If his temporal stance is today, then the pa=
st perfect is expressing its "remote past" function and could be replaced w=
ith "was" if specification of remote past is not important to the writer.
At least that's how I read it.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Scott [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 20, 2010 9:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Past perfect?
Please don't shoot me for reentering such a touchy area but, I need comment=
on the following:
"Politically Artois had only been French control for less than a century an=
d a half and that period had ended 330 years previously." [context is a di=
scussion of a 1569 tax roll of Artois].
I read this sentence and wondered whether the first 'had been' should have =
been 'was.'
Scott Catledge
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:50:07 -0700
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: word definitions
--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1375D048F668EMBX01ldschurc_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Scott,
One could easily add to this list: tsk-tsk, hrumpf, bah, shhh, etc. I thin=
k such utterances can be an embarrassment to linguists, in a way. The phon=
ologist can describe them easily enough, but not usually with the regular p=
honemes of the language! Words are generally defined as consisting in cert=
ain strings of phonemes. These utterances seem to convey a certain meaning=
in the greater context of a conversation, but are seldom written outside o=
f quotations. As you point out they are definitely symbolic in nature. Bu=
t they generally occur in isolation rather than in the patterns and arrange=
ments that characterize a syntax. Many of the symbols of ASL participate i=
n patterns and exhibit a syntax. Yet the words in ASL consist in elements =
as distinguished in the visual dimension.
Maybe this is the best way to distinguish: 1) words of English a) have a di=
stinctly phonemic construction, b) they have a syntax; the words of ASL a) =
are "optinemic," b) and have a syntax; 3) the utterances in question are a=
) not phonemic b) nor do they exhibit a syntax. Yet they still belong to =
the symbolic system of language.
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: word definitions
Dear List,
In a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the topic of audible non-v=
erbal discourse markers came up, specifically, the nasalized sounds often w=
ritten as "uh-huh" and "hhm." We discussed the meanings of these and how th=
ey generally had a clear meaning to the speaker and the hearer. A student =
asked if these were words, and I realized that I wasn't really sure. What =
makes these either words or not words? We also discussed body language and =
facial expressions and how some of these had a clear meaning to most people=
who saw them. In what ways are these fundamentally different from the phys=
ical movements used in ASL, for instance, which can be considered words?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s=
) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized=
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the =
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy al=
l copies of the original message.
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--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1375D048F668EMBX01ldschurc_
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Scott,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>One could easily add to this list: tsk-tsk, hrumpf, bah, shh=
h, etc.
I think such utterances can be an embarrassment to linguists, in a way.&nbs=
p;
The phonologist can describe them easily enough, but not usually with the r=
egular
phonemes of the language! Words are generally defined as consisting i=
n certain
strings of phonemes. These utterances seem to convey a certain meanin=
g in
the greater context of a conversation, but are seldom written outside of qu=
otations.
As you point out they are definitely symbolic in nature. But they gen=
erally
occur in isolation rather than in the patterns and arrangements that
characterize a syntax. Many of the symbols of ASL participate in patt=
erns
and exhibit a syntax. Yet the words in ASL consist in elements as
distinguished in the visual dimension.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Maybe this is the best way to distinguish: 1) words of Engli=
sh a)
have a distinctly phonemic construction, b) they have a syntax; the words of
ASL a) are “optinemic,” b) and have a syntax; 3) the
utterances in question are a) not phonemic b) nor do they exhibit a syntax.=
Yet they still belong to the symbolic system of language. <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bruce<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma=
","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for =
the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Scott
Woods<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> word definitions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear List,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>In a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the t=
opic
of audible non-verbal discourse markers came up, specifically, the nasalized
sounds often written as "uh-huh" and "hhm." We discussed
the meanings of these and how they generally had a clear meaning to the spe=
aker
and the hearer. A student asked if these were words, and I realized t=
hat
I wasn't really sure. What makes these either words or not words? We =
also
discussed body language and facial expressions and how some of these had a
clear meaning to most people who saw them. In what ways are these fundament=
ally
different from the physical movements used in ASL, for instance, which can =
be
considered words? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the =
list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<DIV>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:7.0pt';font-family:&#=
39;"Helvetica","Tahoma","Arial","sans-serif"'><font color=3D"#666666"><=
br><br> NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended reci=
pient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unaut=
horized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are n=
ot the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and des=
troy all copies of the original message.</span><o:p></o:p></span></p><BR>
</DIV></body>
</html>
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--_000_C62F596A20AB834B86375CE75059D1375D048F668EMBX01ldschurc_--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:18:10 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: word definitions
Linguists regularly dodge this question by calling utterances like these "p=
aralinguistic gestures," a fancy way of saying that they communicate but we=
can't analyze them internally as part of the lexicon, morphologically, or =
syntactically. Clearly, as Scott has done with his students, they can be t=
reated as discourse markers and have a clear function at that level. By th=
e way, paralinguistic gestures aren't limited articulatorily to what natura=
l languages use in their sound systems. No language uses a pulmonic ingres=
sive airstream mechanism as a part of its phonology, yet in Scandinavian cu=
ltures an inhaled vowel sound is a form of backchanneling. One or two lang=
uages use bilabial trills, the sound we call a raspberry or a Bronx cheer, =
although some samples involve the tongue between the lips which is not a li=
nguistic gesture.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 21, 2010 12:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: word definitions
Scott,
One could easily add to this list: tsk-tsk, hrumpf, bah, shhh, etc. I thin=
k such utterances can be an embarrassment to linguists, in a way. The phon=
ologist can describe them easily enough, but not usually with the regular p=
honemes of the language! Words are generally defined as consisting in cert=
ain strings of phonemes. These utterances seem to convey a certain meaning=
in the greater context of a conversation, but are seldom written outside o=
f quotations. As you point out they are definitely symbolic in nature. Bu=
t they generally occur in isolation rather than in the patterns and arrange=
ments that characterize a syntax. Many of the symbols of ASL participate i=
n patterns and exhibit a syntax. Yet the words in ASL consist in elements =
as distinguished in the visual dimension.
Maybe this is the best way to distinguish: 1) words of English a) have a di=
stinctly phonemic construction, b) they have a syntax; the words of ASL a) =
are =93optinemic,=94 b) and have a syntax; 3) the utterances in question a=
re a) not phonemic b) nor do they exhibit a syntax. Yet they still belong=
to the symbolic system of language.
Bruce
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 9:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: word definitions
Dear List,
In a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the topic of audible non-v=
erbal discourse markers came up, specifically, the nasalized sounds often w=
ritten as "uh-huh" and "hhm." We discussed the meanings of these and how th=
ey generally had a clear meaning to the speaker and the hearer. A student =
asked if these were words, and I realized that I wasn't really sure. What =
makes these either words or not words? We also discussed body language and =
facial expressions and how some of these had a clear meaning to most people=
who saw them. In what ways are these fundamentally different from the phys=
ical movements used in ASL, for instance, which can be considered words?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s)=
and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized =
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the i=
ntended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all=
copies of the original message.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 10:55:24 -0800
From: "Wollin, Edith" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: word definitions
------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9ACB.4A38A92A
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Scrabble recognizes uh, hmm, huh as words, if that helps at all!!
Edith Wollin
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: word definitions
=20
Dear List,
=20
In a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, the topic of audible
non-verbal discourse markers came up, specifically, the nasalized sounds
often written as "uh-huh" and "hhm." We discussed the meanings of these
and how they generally had a clear meaning to the speaker and the
hearer. A student asked if these were words, and I realized that I
wasn't really sure. What makes these either words or not words? We also
discussed body language and facial expressions and how some of these had
a clear meaning to most people who saw them. In what ways are these
fundamentally different from the physical movements used in ASL, for
instance, which can be considered words?=20
=20
Thanks,
Scott Woods
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Scrabble recognizes uh, hmm, huh as words, if that helps =
at
all!!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Edith Wollin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Scott
Woods<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 21, 2010 8:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> word definitions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear List,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>In a discussion yesterday with a rhetoric class, =
the topic
of audible non-verbal discourse markers came up, specifically, the =
nasalized
sounds often written as "uh-huh" and "hhm." We =
discussed
the meanings of these and how they generally had a clear meaning to the =
speaker
and the hearer. A student asked if these were words, and I =
realized that
I wasn't really sure. What makes these either words or not words? =
We also
discussed body language and facial expressions and how some of these had =
a clear
meaning to most people who saw them. In what ways are these =
fundamentally
different from the physical movements used in ASL, for instance, which =
can be
considered words? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and =
select
"Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<o:p></o:p></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01CA9ACB.4A38A92A--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:46:09 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Scott's Past Perfect
--0-2006498213-1264103169=:58113
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Scott,
=A0
If this sentence, "Politically Artois had only been [under] French control =
for less than a century and a half and that period had ended 330 years prev=
iously", scampered across your kitchen floor, you would hit it with a broom=
. It's too ugly to be alive.
=A0
(For once:) I agree with Herb that the sentence needs (in addition to a maj=
or overhaul) more context to make it possible to decide the appropriateness=
of the "had been".
=A0
The second 'had', however,=A0is incorrect=A0with or without more context. T=
hat period=A0ended 330 years previously.
=A0
"There is nothing=A0the word 'had' can do for a past tense verb that the ve=
rb cannot do for itself."=A0 That's the rule.
=A0
.brad.21jan10.
=A0
~~~~~~
=A0
On Wed, 1/20/10, Scott <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=A0
Please don't shoot me for reentering such a touchy area but, I need comment=
on the following: "Politically Artois had only been French control for les=
s than a century and a half and that period had ended 330 years previously.=
"=A0 [context is a discussion of a 1569 tax roll of Artois].
I read this sentence and wondered whether the first 'had been' should have =
been 'was.'
Scott Catledge
=0A=0A=0A
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--0-2006498213-1264103169=:58113
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<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV id=3Dyiv839129761>
<DIV>Scott,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If this sentence, "Politically Artois had only been [under] French con=
trol for less than a century and a half and that period had ended 330 years=
previously", scampered across your kitchen floor, you would hit it with a =
broom. It's too ugly to be alive.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(For once<STRONG>:</STRONG>) I agree with Herb that the sentence needs=
(in addition to a major overhaul) more context to make it possible to deci=
de the appropriateness of the "had been".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The second 'had', however, is incorrect with or without more=
context. That period <U>ended</U> 330 years previously.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"There is nothing the word 'had' can do for a past tense verb tha=
t the verb cannot do for itself." That's the rule.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>.brad.21jan10.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"verdana, helvetica, sans-serif"><STRONG>~~~~~~<=
/STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On <B>Wed, 1/20/10, Scott <I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</D=
IV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Please don't shoot me for reentering such a touchy area but, I need co=
mment on the following: "Politically Artois had only been French control fo=
r less than a century and a half and that period had ended 330 years previo=
usly." [context is a discussion of a 1569 tax roll of Artois].</DIV>
<DIV class=3DplainMail><BR>I read this sentence and wondered whether the fi=
rst 'had been' should have been 'was.'<BR><BR>Scott Catledge<BR></DIV></DIV=
></td></tr></table><br>=0A=0A=0A=0A
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--0-2006498213-1264103169=:58113--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:31:45 -0500
From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Passive errors
Hi, all
I'm planning a lesson for my TESL students and I'm looking for some =
authentic learner errors with passive voice. I'd especially like =
examples of overuse of the long passive (i.e., with a 'by'-phrase), but =
any errors would be welcome. Please, note: I do NOT want contrived =
examples, but if you would share some learner-produced examples, I'd be =
very much in your debt.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 20:50:04 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Passive errors
Over the years we've talked about passive a number of times, and one of the=
issues is the question of what constitutes a passive. The obvious syntact=
ic description is a BE auxiliary with a past participle and optionally a by=
-phrase containing the agent. But does the passive require an expressed or=
assumed agent? In=20
The clown amused the children.
there are two ways promoting "the children" to subject:
The children were amused by the clown.
The children were amused at the clown.
In the by-phrase, "the clown" is clearly agent, but not in the at-phrase. =
So is the first sentence a passive, but the second is not. The sentence
The city council gave an award to the most successful community organizer.
can have the recipient (dative) promoted to subject as either
The most successful community organizer was given an award by the city coun=
cil.
or
The most successful community organizer received an award from the city cou=
ncil.
The semantic roles of the noun phrases in the two sentences are the same ev=
en though one is syntactically passive and the other active.
These are typical cases of sentences that get called passive but that don't=
have strict passive syntax. What I have found in my classes is that stude=
nts don't know the syntactic description but rather react that a sentence i=
s passive if the subject is not clearly agent or if there is a BE verb.
The reason for laying this out above is that I'm curious what sorts of exam=
ples you will get. What do teachers regard as passive errors and why? You=
might even end up with an interesting paper out of this.
I hope you will post the list of examples you receive.
Herb
=20
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 21, 2010 8:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Passive errors
Hi, all
I'm planning a lesson for my TESL students and I'm looking for some authent=
ic learner errors with passive voice. I'd especially like examples of overu=
se of the long passive (i.e., with a 'by'-phrase), but any errors would be =
welcome. Please, note: I do NOT want contrived examples, but if you would s=
hare some learner-produced examples, I'd be very much in your debt.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 21:30:37 -0600
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Passive errors
Brett,
I have been teaching ESL for a long time and have thought about "errors" =
that are considered passive voice errors in some of the error literature. =
I think such a label is misleading.
Both have to do with the kinds of verbs Herb mentions.
First are the reverse psychological verbs. In other words, the experiencie=
r is in the object position. Amuse is such a verb.
Consider amuse vs. enjoy.
1) The clown amused the children.
2) The children enjoyed the clown.=20
Children experiences the emotion in both verbs but is not in the same =
grammatical position.
There is all kinds of evidence that L2 learners assume that all verbs are =
like enjoy. =20
So, a possible L2 error for amuse is
3) The children are amusing the clown.
If I'm right, (3) from a proficient speaker point of view, appears to be a =
problem of passive morphology. Clearly amusing should be the past =
participle amused and you need to add by. However, if an L2 learner =
assumes amuse is like enjoy, then the learner was not attempting a passive =
construction.
Last week I had a Japanese student tell me the following:
4) I am confusing by what I am supposed to do for the first paper.
Note: confuse is like amuse and not enjoy.
****
There are a set of verbs that move the object to subject position without =
passive morphology. Although I haven't seen receive having this problem, =
but consider increase or decrease.
5) The rising price of oil is increasing the price of gas.
Although you can make (5) passive
6) The price of gas has been increased by the rising price of oil.
It is not necessary.
7) The price of gas increases every day.=20
Because L2 learners don't realize such verbs like increase exist, I have =
seen the following:
8) The price of gas is increased every day.
Note that a lot of cooking verbs (bake, fry, boil, etc) and other verbs =
like start, open close allows the underlying object to subject position =
without passive morphology. =20
If a learner writes (8), is it a passive error from the learner's =
perspective?
Look at the Gooficon, a very early L2 taxonomy for L2 errors for how these =
types of "errors" are labelled.=20
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 01/21/10 7:52 PM >>>
Over the years we've talked about passive a number of times, and one of =
the issues is the question of what constitutes a passive. The obvious =
syntactic description is a BE auxiliary with a past participle and =
optionally a by-phrase containing the agent. But does the passive require =
an expressed or assumed agent? In=20
The clown amused the children.
there are two ways promoting "the children" to subject:
The children were amused by the clown.
The children were amused at the clown.
In the by-phrase, "the clown" is clearly agent, but not in the at-phrase. =
So is the first sentence a passive, but the second is not. The sentence
The city council gave an award to the most successful community organizer.
can have the recipient (dative) promoted to subject as either
The most successful community organizer was given an award by the city =
council.
or
The most successful community organizer received an award from the city =
council.
The semantic roles of the noun phrases in the two sentences are the same =
even though one is syntactically passive and the other active.
These are typical cases of sentences that get called passive but that =
don't have strict passive syntax. What I have found in my classes is that =
students don't know the syntactic description but rather react that a =
sentence is passive if the subject is not clearly agent or if there is a =
BE verb.
The reason for laying this out above is that I'm curious what sorts of =
examples you will get. What do teachers regard as passive errors and why? =
You might even end up with an interesting paper out of this.
I hope you will post the list of examples you receive.
Herb
=20
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brett Reynolds [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: January 21, 2010 8:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Passive errors
Hi, all
I'm planning a lesson for my TESL students and I'm looking for some =
authentic learner errors with passive voice. I'd especially like examples =
of overuse of the long passive (i.e., with a 'by'-phrase), but any errors =
would be welcome. Please, note: I do NOT want contrived examples, but if =
you would share some learner-produced examples, I'd be very much in your =
debt.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
[log in to unmask]
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 20 Jan 2010 to 21 Jan 2010 (#2010-4)
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