I do not try to write pretentiously; however, my conjunctive adverbs are
always preceded by a semi-colon and invariably followed by a comma. I do
make incredible mistakes in my posting ('there' for 'their' and commas where
periods should be used, misspelled words, etc.); nonetheless, these are
errors that appear on postings and not on hard copy--which is always spelled
checked (but not grammar checked; I think that the authors of grammar check
programs are speakers of English as a second language working from a poor
English translation of a badly written grammar book by another speaker of
English as a second language).
I freely admit that I am over three-score and ten and fain would use words
that are becoming obsolescent because I prize them too highly.
When I was teaching ESOL, I would teach speaking and informal writing one
semester; then, formal speech and writing the next. I also taught _The Five
Clocks_ so that students could speak and write more appropriately. The few
professors in my classes (French, Belgian, German natives) only took the
second semester: their English was already quite satisfactory for social
purposes.
My last major English assignments consisted of editing PhD dissertations for
students at a major university. I received no complaints but many
acclamations. One student (a major in English linguistics) disagreed and
changed one subjunctive to an indicative. The only unfavorable comment on
his dissertation was "A major in English linguistics should at least know
when the subjunctive was appropriate": he had to change the verb back to the
subjunctive before the dissertation was acceptable.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Feb 2011 to 14 Feb 2011 (#2011-40)
There are 4 messages totalling 1071 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. On meanings of the past perfect (2)
2. Conjunctive Adverbs, Prepositions, and Punctuation (2)
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 07:05:43 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect
A corpus makes it easy for you but another easy way is to just loo=
--0-934745780-1297695943=:17105
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
tj,=0A=0AA corpus makes it easy for you but another easy way is to just loo=
k at what =0Apasses you by.=0A=0AFrom yesterday's Washington Post Magazine,=
"He still speaks with sorrow about =0Athe first two: a girl he met just af=
ter graduating college who, it turned out, =0Awas still seeing her ex-boyfr=
iend; and a woman he met on a Metro platform with =0Awhom he started "this =
really intense, amazing, passionate thing", but who =0Aeventually told him =
she had "found Christ and was gonna be celibate until she =0Agot married".=
=0A=0AShe "had found" Christ? Relative to what? The Third Crusade?=0A=0ALoo=
k around. They're everywhere.=0A=0A.br-had.valentinesday.2011.=0A=0AMeanwhi=
le, please tell me ...=0A=A0=0AWhat is it? What is the past perfect? What w=
ould you write on the board for them =0Ato scribble into their notebooks an=
d carry=A0away when the bell rings? "The past =0Aperfect is ..."=0A=0A=0A=
=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Brad Johnston <bradvines2@ya=
hoo.com>=0ATo: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]
MUOHIO.EDU>=0ASent: Sun, February 13, 2011 2:25:25 PM=0ASubject: Re: On mea=
nings of the past perfect=0A=0A=0Atj,=0A=0AClick on corpus.byu.edu=A0and en=
ter 'had' plus the past participle of 'shared' or =0A'include' or 'use' (to=
take three verbs from your message)=A0and you will see =0Asome. I know=A0t=
hey're there without=A0looking because it is a=A0common occurrence.=0A=0AMe=
anwhile, please tell me ...=0A=0AWhat is it? What is the past perfect? What=
would you write on the board for them =0Ato scribble into their notebooks =
and carry=A0away when the bell rings? "The past =0Aperfect is ..."=0A=0ATha=
nks for participating.=0A=0A.br-had.sun.13feb11.=A0=A0=0A=0A_______________=
_________________=0AFrom: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU=0ASent: Sun, February 13, 2011 11:13:49 AM=0ASubject: Re: On me=
anings of the past perfect=0A=0ABrad, =0A=0A=0AAs =A0you seem to have the c=
orner on the meaning of "past perfect," perhaps =A0you=0Awill share it with=
me. =A0In doing so, please include a sentence or two that use=0A"had + a p=
ast participle" that is not past perfect.=0A=0AHappy Valentine's Day.=0A=0A=
tj=0A=0A=0AOn Saturday 02/12/2011 at 7:45 pm, Brad Johnston wrote: =0AWelco=
me, T.J.,=0A>=0A>What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write=
on the board for them =0A>to scribble into their notebooks and carry=A0awa=
y when the bell rings? "The past =0A>perfect is ..."=0A>=0A>Please, please,=
please don't say "the past perfect is had + a past participle". =0A>If you=
want to get the jump on understanding it, note that all past perfects are =
=0A>formed by=A0had + a past participle but all occurrences of had + a past=
participle =0A>are not past perfects.=A0=0A>=0A>You need a different sourc=
e than the one you used below, which only got you one =0A>right out of thre=
e.=0A>=0A>Thanks for stopping by.=0A>=0A>.brad.sat.12feb11.=0A>=0A>=0A>=A0=
=0A=0A=0A=0A
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-934745780-1297695943=:17105
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
0pt"><DIV>tj,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>A corpus makes it easy for y=
ou but another easy way is to just look at what passes you by.</DIV>=0A<DIV=
> </DIV>=0A<DIV>From yesterday's Washington Post Magazine, "He still s=
peaks with sorrow about the first two: a girl he met just after graduating =
college who, it turned out, was still seeing her ex-boyfriend; and a woman =
he met on a Metro platform with whom he started "this really intense, amazi=
ng, passionate thing", but who eventually told him she had "found Christ an=
d was gonna be celibate until she got married".</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=
=0A<DIV>She "had found" Christ? Relative to what? The Third Crusade?<BR></D=
IV>=0A<DIV>Look around. They're everywhere.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DI=
V>.br-had.valentinesday.2011.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV><EM>=
Meanwhile, please tell me ...</EM></DIV>=0A<DIV><EM> </EM></DIV>=0A<DI=
V>=0A<DIV><EM>What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write on=
the board for them to scribble into their notebooks and carry away wh=
en the bell rings? "The past perfect is <STRONG>...</STRONG>"</EM></DIV>=0A=
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica=
, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: times new =
roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2><FONT face=
=3DTahoma>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SP=
AN></B> Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FON=
T-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=
<[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">S=
ent:</SPAN></B> Sun, February 13, 2011 2:25:25 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: On meanings of the past perfect<BR><=
/FONT><BR></FONT>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-ser=
if; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=0A<DIV>tj,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Click on =
<FONT color=3D#800080 face=3DArial><A href=3D"http://corpus.byu.edu/" rel=
=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>corpus.byu.edu</A> </FONT>and enter 'had' =
plus the past participle of 'shared' or 'include' or 'use' (to take three v=
erbs from your message) and you will see some. I know they're the=
re without looking because it is a common occurrence.</DIV>=0A<DI=
V> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Meanwhile, please tell me ...</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DI=
V>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV><EM>What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you =
write on the board for them to scribble into their notebooks and carry =
;away when the bell rings? "The past perfect is <STRONG>...</STRONG>"</EM><=
/DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Thanks for participating.</DIV>=0A<DIV>&nb=
sp;</DIV>=0A<DIV>.br-had.sun.13feb11.</DIV> <BR><FONT face=3DTah=
oma>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B=
> T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bol=
d">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT=
: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sun, February 13, 2011 11:13:49 AM<BR><B><SPAN sty=
le=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: On meanings of the past pe=
rfect<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<STYLE>=0A.sw_message P{margin:0px;padding:0px;}=0A.=
sw_message {FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif=
;background:white;}=0A</STYLE>=0ABrad, </DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMI=
LY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">=0A<DIV><FONT=
size=3D2><BR></FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>As you seem to have=
the corner on the meaning of "past perfect," perhaps you</FONT></DIV=
>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>will share it with me. In doing so, please in=
clude a sentence or two that use</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"had + =
a past participle" that is not past perfect.</FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=
=3D2><BR></FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Happy Valentine's Day.</FONT><=
/DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2><BR></FONT></DIV>=0A<DIV><FONT size=3D2>tj<BR><=
BR><BR></FONT>=0A<DIV id=3Deditor_signature></DIV><FONT size=3D2>On Saturda=
y 02/12/2011 at 7:45 pm, Brad Johnston wrote: </FONT>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D=
"cite">=0A<STYLE>.sw_message DIV {margin:0px;}--></STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV=
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">=0A<D=
IV>Welcome, T.J.,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>What is it? What is the =
past perfect? What would you write on the board for them to scribble into t=
heir notebooks and carry away when the bell rings? "The past perfect i=
s <STRONG>...</STRONG>"</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Please, please, pl=
ease don't say "the past perfect is had + a past participle". If you want t=
o get the jump on understanding it, note that all past perfects are formed =
by had + a past participle but all occurrences of had + a past partici=
ple are not past perfects. </DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>You need =
a different source than the one you used below, which only got you one righ=
t out of three.</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Thanks for stopping by.</D=
IV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>.brad.sat.12feb11.<BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D=
"FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR> </DI=
V></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR></DIV></DIV></div><b=
r>=0A=0A </body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-934745780-1297695943=:17105--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:48:43 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conjunctive Adverbs, Prepositions, and Punctuation
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------040809080207060204090603
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ed,
Nicely said. When adverbials move to the front of a clause, they
very often establish a thematic connection to the sentences before (or
even anticipate sentences to follow.) They have a strong role in
establishing the flow of discourse. It seems to me problematic to single
out a few of those for a special status and then generate a punctuation
rule to apply only to them. It seems that good writers happily ignore
the advice.
These "conjunctive adverbs" are easy to paraphrase. "Therefore" and
"consequently" can be replaced by "as a result." "Nevertheless" can mean
something close to "despite that." "On the other hand," in addition,"
additionally," "as a matter of fact," and "for example" often float into
that opening slot, doing much the same work.
"Then" is parallel to "first," "next," "last" or "finally." They
open sentences up quite often because of their thematic role. "First,
we... Next, we.... Then, we.... Finally, we....." They are not locked
into opening position (nor are the so-called "conjunctive adverbs"), but
it is a natural place for them given their role in the discourse.
Craig
On 2/13/2011 1:40 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:
> John,
> Although it is not your main concern, I would like to note that
> a conjunctive adverbs MAY be preceded by a semicolon, but in fact
> these words are far more often preceded by a period. This is true
> even in handbooks that continue to tell students to use semicolons in
> that position, and it is definitely true in professional writing of
> every kind I have ever examined. My best guess is that the ratio of
> period to semicolon in contemporary writing is close to 10 to 1.
>
> Ed S
>
> On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:57 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>
>> I want to check my own understanding of a few things. This message
>> might meander, but it goes somewhere, promise!
>>
>> First, is this a very common punctuation standard? *
>>
>> A conjunctive adverb, when used to join two independent clauses, is
>> preceded by a semicolon and followed by a comma unless the
>> conjunctive adverb is one syllable, in which case the comma is not
>> necessary.
>>
>> *Following this rule, we would write:
>>
>> "The first freeze of winter arrived; however, the plants were saved
>> due to the gardener's efforts."
>>
>> "The first freeze of winter arrived; then the gardener wept over his
>> dead plants."
>>
>> Is this a punctuation convention that list members use?
>>
>> Second, I'd like to ask about the word "then". It seems like a
>> prototypical conjunction, functioning to join a concept with a
>> temporal modifier. The example above would qualify as would this one,
>> which uses the conjunction as an adverbial NOT between two
>> independent clauses:
>>
>> "You are late. You go, then, to the back of the line.
>>
>> But what about this:
>>
>> "He turned the ignition then slammed his foot on the gas pedal."
>>
>> "Then" is not functioning as a conjunctive adverb. It's neither
>> adverbial nor conjunctival (conjunction-like?). In this case is it
>> functioning as a preposition? If so, is the verb phrase "slammed his
>> foot on the gas pedal" serving as object of that preposition?
>>
>> Am I on the right track here? I'm trying to answer a student question
>> about why our native instinct is to say:
>>
>> Speaker A: "Who should go first?"
>> Speaker B: "You then me." (Instead of "You [go] then I [go].)
>>
>> Is it "me" because it is serving as object of a preposition ("then")?
>>
>> Thanks for weighing in on this!
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--------------040809080207060204090603
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<title></title>
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
Ed,<br>
Nicely said. When adverbials move to the front of a
clause, they
very often establish a thematic connection to the sentences before
(or even anticipate sentences to follow.) They have a strong role in
establishing the flow of discourse. It seems to me problematic to
single out a few of those for a special status and then generate a
punctuation rule to apply only to them. It seems that good writers
happily ignore the advice.<br>
These "conjunctive adverbs" are easy to paraphrase.
"Therefore"
and "consequently" can be replaced by "as a result." "Nevertheless"
can mean something close to "despite that." "On the other hand," in
addition," additionally," "as a matter of fact," and "for example"
often float into that opening slot, doing much the same work.<br>
"Then" is parallel to "first," "next," "last" or "finally."
They
open sentences up quite often because of their thematic role.
"First, we... Next, we.... Then, we.... Finally, we....." They are
not locked into opening position (nor are the so-called "conjunctive
adverbs"), but it is a natural place for them given their role in
the discourse.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/13/2011 1:40 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:[log in to unmask]"
type="cite">
<div>John,</div>
<div>Although it is not your main concern, I would like to note
that a conjunctive adverbs MAY be preceded by a semicolon, but
in fact these words are far more often preceded by a period.
This is true even in handbooks that continue to tell students
to use semicolons in that position, and it is definitely true in
professional writing of every kind I have ever examined. My
best guess is that the ratio of period to semicolon in
contemporary writing is close to 10 to 1.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ed S</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:57 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">I want to check my own understanding of
a few things. This message might meander, but it goes
somewhere, promise!<br>
<br>
First, is this a very common punctuation standard? <b><br>
<br>
A conjunctive adverb, when used to join two independent
clauses, is preceded by a semicolon and followed by a comma
unless the conjunctive adverb is one syllable, in which case
the comma is not necessary.<br>
<br>
</b>Following this rule, we would write:<br>
<br>
"The first freeze of winter arrived; however, the plants were
saved due to the gardener's efforts."<br>
<br>
"The first freeze of winter arrived; then the gardener wept
over his dead plants."<br>
<br>
Is this a punctuation convention that list members use?<br>
<br>
Second, I'd like to ask about the word "then". It seems like a
prototypical conjunction, functioning to join a concept with a
temporal modifier. The example above would qualify as would
this one, which uses the conjunction as an adverbial NOT
between two independent clauses:<br>
<br>
"You are late. You go, then, to the back of the line.<br>
<br>
But what about this:<br>
<br>
"He turned the ignition then slammed his foot on the gas
pedal."<br>
<br>
"Then" is not functioning as a conjunctive adverb. It's
neither adverbial nor conjunctival (conjunction-like?). In
this case is it functioning as a preposition? If so, is the
verb phrase "slammed his foot on the gas pedal" serving as
object of that preposition? <br>
<br>
Am I on the right track here? I'm trying to answer a student
question about why our native instinct is to say:<br>
<br>
Speaker A: "Who should go first?" <br>
Speaker B: "You then me." (Instead of "You [go] then I [go].)<br>
<br>
Is it "me" because it is serving as object of a preposition
("then")?<br>
<br>
Thanks for weighing in on this!<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.
edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p> Visit ATEG's web site at <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.
edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a>
</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--------------040809080207060204090603--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:26:58 -0500
From: Terry Lynn Irons <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect
If I were to write something on the board for students to scribble in their=
notebooks, it would be something like this:
The past perfect, a phrasal verb consisting of had plus past participle, is=
used to show a relation between two actions or events that happened in the=
past. More specifically, it indicates that one action occurred and was co=
mpleted before another action in the past. =20
The question for me is whether I would write something on the board for stu=
dents to scribble in their notebooks. In a discovery based approach, stude=
nts would be asked to figure out how tense sequencing worked in English by =
examining passages. =20
In the example, the finding of Christ is an action that happened before she=
told someone about it. =20
--
--
Fraternally,
Terry
(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=
=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)
Terry Lynn Irons [log in to unmask]
Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164
Snail Mail: 150 University BLVD UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351
(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=
=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)=3D(*)
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 2:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect
tj,
Click on corpus.byu.edu<http://corpus.byu.edu/> and enter 'had' plus the pa=
st participle of 'shared' or 'include' or 'use' (to take three verbs from y=
our message) and you will see some. I know they're there without looking be=
cause it is a common occurrence.
Meanwhile, please tell me ...
What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write on the board for=
them to scribble into their notebooks and carry away when the bell rings? =
"The past perfect is ..."
Thanks for participating.
.br-had.sun.13feb11.
________________________________
From: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 11:13:49 AM
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect
Brad,
As you seem to have the corner on the meaning of "past perfect," perhaps =
you
will share it with me. In doing so, please include a sentence or two that =
use
"had + a past participle" that is not past perfect.
Happy Valentine's Day.
tj
On Saturday 02/12/2011 at 7:45 pm, Brad Johnston wrote:
Welcome, T.J.,
What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write on the board for=
them to scribble into their notebooks and carry away when the bell rings? =
"The past perfect is ..."
Please, please, please don't say "the past perfect is had + a past particip=
le". If you want to get the jump on understanding it, note that all past pe=
rfects are formed by had + a past participle but all occurrences of had + a=
past participle are not past perfects.
You need a different source than the one you used below, which only got you=
one right out of three.
Thanks for stopping by.
.brad.sat.12feb11.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:03:21 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Conjunctive Adverbs, Prepositions, and Punctuation
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCCA3.CC36DFBB
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=20
Ed's comment made me curious, so I did a quick COCA search. The ratio of
[". However ," : "; however, "] was 48268: 3627 (or, roughly, 13:1).
There were 74,389 instances of comma-flanked 'however'; the first few
screens of these that I looked through all seemed to conform to the
"post-Subject" or "interrupter" use of the word, but a couple of quick
sub-searches found instances of "however" used at the end of an
independent clause which was followed by a second, coordinate clause
(e.g. "I was astonished, however, and Helmut was too").=20
=20
Of that type, there's a predictable (in hindsight, at least) disparity
between cases using 'and' vs. those using 'but' , with the former much
more common (the ratio was 1839:127, or roughly 14.5:1). In general,
'and' is about six times as common as 'but', so it's probable that at
least a proportion of that 14.5:1 disparity is just mirroring a more
basic one. I'm wondering, though, if the fact that "however" and "but"
share a number of characteristics creates a more dissonant effect when
they're chained.=20
=20
--- Bill Spruiell
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2011 11:49 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Conjunctive Adverbs, Prepositions, and Punctuation
=20
Ed,
Nicely said. When adverbials move to the front of a clause, they
very often establish a thematic connection to the sentences before (or
even anticipate sentences to follow.) They have a strong role in
establishing the flow of discourse. It seems to me problematic to single
out a few of those for a special status and then generate a punctuation
rule to apply only to them. It seems that good writers happily ignore
the advice.
These "conjunctive adverbs" are easy to paraphrase. "Therefore" and
"consequently" can be replaced by "as a result." "Nevertheless" can mean
something close to "despite that." "On the other hand," in addition,"
additionally," "as a matter of fact," and "for example" often float into
that opening slot, doing much the same work.
"Then" is parallel to "first," "next," "last" or "finally." They open
sentences up quite often because of their thematic role. "First, we...
Next, we.... Then, we.... Finally, we....." They are not locked into
opening position (nor are the so-called "conjunctive adverbs"), but it
is a natural place for them given their role in the discourse.
Craig
=20
On 2/13/2011 1:40 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:=20
John,
Although it is not your main concern, I would like to note that a
conjunctive adverbs MAY be preceded by a semicolon, but in fact these
words are far more often preceded by a period. This is true even in
handbooks that continue to tell students to use semicolons in that
position, and it is definitely true in professional writing of every
kind I have ever examined. My best guess is that the ratio of period to
semicolon in contemporary writing is close to 10 to 1.
=20
Ed S
=20
On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:57 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
I want to check my own understanding of a few things. This message might
meander, but it goes somewhere, promise!
First, is this a very common punctuation standard?=20
A conjunctive adverb, when used to join two independent clauses, is
preceded by a semicolon and followed by a comma unless the conjunctive
adverb is one syllable, in which case the comma is not necessary.
Following this rule, we would write:
"The first freeze of winter arrived; however, the plants were saved due
to the gardener's efforts."
"The first freeze of winter arrived; then the gardener wept over his
dead plants."
Is this a punctuation convention that list members use?
Second, I'd like to ask about the word "then". It seems like a
prototypical conjunction, functioning to join a concept with a temporal
modifier. The example above would qualify as would this one, which uses
the conjunction as an adverbial NOT between two independent clauses:
"You are late. You go, then, to the back of the line.
But what about this:
"He turned the ignition then slammed his foot on the gas pedal."
"Then" is not functioning as a conjunctive adverb. It's neither
adverbial nor conjunctival (conjunction-like?). In this case is it
functioning as a preposition? If so, is the verb phrase "slammed his
foot on the gas pedal" serving as object of that preposition?=20
Am I on the right track here? I'm trying to answer a student question
about why our native instinct is to say:
Speaker A: "Who should go first?"=20
Speaker B: "You then me." (Instead of "You [go] then I [go].)
Is it "me" because it is serving as object of a preposition ("then")?
Thanks for weighing in on this!
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCCA3.CC36DFBB
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" =
xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" =
xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:x=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" =
xmlns:p=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:powerpoint" =
xmlns:a=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:access" =
xmlns:dt=3D"uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" =
xmlns:s=3D"uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882" =
xmlns:rs=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset" xmlns:z=3D"#RowsetSchema" =
xmlns:b=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:publisher" =
xmlns:ss=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet" =
xmlns:c=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:component:spreadsheet" =
xmlns:odc=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:odc" =
xmlns:oa=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:activation" =
xmlns:html=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" =
xmlns:q=3D"http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" =
xmlns:rtc=3D"http://microsoft.com/officenet/conferencing" =
xmlns:D=3D"DAV:" xmlns:Repl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" =
xmlns:mt=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/meetings/" =
xmlns:x2=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" =
xmlns:ppda=3D"http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" =
xmlns:ois=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" =
xmlns:dir=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" =
xmlns:ds=3D"http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" =
xmlns:dsp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" =
xmlns:udc=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" =
xmlns:xsd=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" =
xmlns:sub=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/"=
xmlns:ec=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" =
xmlns:sp=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" =
xmlns:sps=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" =
xmlns:xsi=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" =
xmlns:udcs=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/soap" =
xmlns:udcxf=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" =
xmlns:udcp2p=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" =
xmlns:wf=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" =
xmlns:dsss=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" =
xmlns:dssi=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig" =
xmlns:mdssi=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/digital-sig=
nature" =
xmlns:mver=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006=
" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" =
xmlns:mrels=3D"http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationshi=
ps" xmlns:spwp=3D"http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" =
xmlns:ex12t=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types"=
=
xmlns:ex12m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/messag=
es" =
xmlns:pptsl=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/=
" =
xmlns:spsl=3D"http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/Pub=
lishedLinksService" xmlns:Z=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" =
xmlns:st=3D"" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
p
{mso-style-priority:99;
mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:black;}
span.EmailStyle18
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;
font-size:10.0pt;}
@page Section1
{size:8.5in 11.0in;
margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;}
div.Section1
{page:Section1;}
-->
</style>
<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">
<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
</head>
<body bgcolor=3Dwhite lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple>
<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Ed’s comment made me curious, so I did a quick COCA
search. The ratio of [“. However ,” : “; =
however, “]
was 48268: 3627 (or, roughly, 13:1). There were 74,389 instances =
of comma-flanked
‘however’; the first few screens of these that I =
looked
through all seemed to conform to the “post-Subject” or =
“interrupter”
use of the word, but a couple of quick sub-searches found instances of =
“however”
used at the end of an independent clause which was followed by a second,
coordinate clause (e.g. “I was astonished, however, and Helmut was =
too”).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Of that type, there’s a predictable (in hindsight, =
at
least) disparity between cases using ‘and’ vs. those using =
‘but’
, with the former much more common (the ratio was 1839:127, or roughly =
14.5:1).
In general, ‘and’ is about six times as common as =
‘but’,
so it’s probable that at least a proportion of that 14.5:1 =
disparity
is just mirroring a more basic one. I’m wondering, though, if the =
fact
that “however” and “but” share a number of
characteristics creates a more dissonant effect when they’re =
chained. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>--- Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Assembly for the Teaching of =
English
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Craig =
Hancock<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 14, 2011 11:49 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Conjunctive Adverbs, Prepositions, and =
Punctuation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Ed,<br>
Nicely said. When adverbials move to the front of a =
clause,
they very often establish a thematic connection to the sentences before =
(or even
anticipate sentences to follow.) They have a strong role in establishing =
the
flow of discourse. It seems to me problematic to single out a few of =
those for
a special status and then generate a punctuation rule to apply only to =
them. It
seems that good writers happily ignore the advice.<br>
These "conjunctive adverbs" are easy to =
paraphrase.
"Therefore" and "consequently" can be replaced by =
"as
a result." "Nevertheless" can mean something close to
"despite that." "On the other hand," in =
addition,"
additionally," "as a matter of fact," and "for
example" often float into that opening slot, doing much the same =
work.<br>
"Then" is parallel to "first,"
"next," "last" or "finally." They open =
sentences
up quite often because of their thematic role. "First, we... Next, =
we....
Then, we.... Finally, we....." They are not locked into opening =
position
(nor are the so-called "conjunctive adverbs"), but it is a =
natural
place for them given their role in the discourse.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<br>
<br>
On 2/13/2011 1:40 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>John,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Although it is not your main concern, I would like =
to note
that a conjunctive adverbs MAY be preceded by a semicolon, but in =
fact
these words are far more often preceded by a period. This is true =
even in
handbooks that continue to tell students to use semicolons in that =
position,
and it is definitely true in professional writing of every kind I have =
ever
examined. My best guess is that the ratio of period to semicolon =
in
contemporary writing is close to 10 to 1.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Ed S<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Feb 11, 2011, at 3:57 PM, John Dews-Alexander =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I want to check my own understanding of a few =
things. This
message might meander, but it goes somewhere, promise!<br>
<br>
First, is this a very common punctuation standard? <b><br>
<br>
A conjunctive adverb, when used to join two independent clauses, is =
preceded by
a semicolon and followed by a comma unless the conjunctive adverb is one
syllable, in which case the comma is not necessary.<br>
<br>
</b>Following this rule, we would write:<br>
<br>
"The first freeze of winter arrived; however, the plants were saved =
due to
the gardener's efforts."<br>
<br>
"The first freeze of winter arrived; then the gardener wept over =
his dead
plants."<br>
<br>
Is this a punctuation convention that list members use?<br>
<br>
Second, I'd like to ask about the word "then". It seems like a
prototypical conjunction, functioning to join a concept with a temporal
modifier. The example above would qualify as would this one, which uses =
the
conjunction as an adverbial NOT between two independent clauses:<br>
<br>
"You are late. You go, then, to the back of the line.<br>
<br>
But what about this:<br>
<br>
"He turned the ignition then slammed his foot on the gas =
pedal."<br>
<br>
"Then" is not functioning as a conjunctive adverb. It's =
neither
adverbial nor conjunctival (conjunction-like?). In this case is it =
functioning
as a preposition? If so, is the verb phrase "slammed his foot on =
the gas
pedal" serving as object of that preposition? <br>
<br>
Am I on the right track here? I'm trying to answer a student question =
about why
our native instinct is to say:<br>
<br>
Speaker A: "Who should go first?" <br>
Speaker B: "You then me." (Instead of "You [go] then I =
[go].)<br>
<br>
Is it "me" because it is serving as object of a preposition
("then")?<br>
<br>
Thanks for weighing in on this!<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: <a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface at: <a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>To join or leave =
this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p><span style=3D'color:windowtext'>Visit ATEG's web site at =
http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01CBCCA3.CC36DFBB--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 13 Feb 2011 to 14 Feb 2011 (#2011-40)
**********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
