Ed, Craig, et al.:

To some extent, what we're seeing is exactly the same process that
resulted in Britain (and the U.S.) never having the equivalent of the
French Academe, i.e. a "legislated" grammar of the language. France and
Spain created their academies via a kind of top-down approach:
regardless of what other grammarians thought, if the King liked you, you
won. The British -- and we -- are grammatically Whiggish. Lack of a
legislated grammar isn't necessarily a bad thing, but of course, it does
cause problems in relation to curriculum.


The solution may lie in a more open discussion of the process by which
we work than by arguing from the start over specific terms. We'll be
successful if we can reach consensus, but consensus (as we've seen) will
*never* occur when it appears as if one person's, or one camp's,
definitions and model are being proposed to the exclusion of others.
Arguing in favor of any one approach, be it KISS or any other, can come
across as a power move. There *are* multiple definitions of "clause,"
and each is valid to the extent it works well within the approach that
defines it -- but we do need to pick one if we want to define a scope
and sequence, even loosely. We all have to realize we have emotional
investments in our own positions, and be willing to attempt to back off
from pushing too much.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think there's not *too* much
disagreement over claims like "this construction is different from that
one"; where the disagreement comes in is the terminology we attach to
the difference, and the explanations we propose for it. We have to deal
with terminology no matter what, but it's possible to adopt a more
agnostic approach to the explanations (and yes, I realize fully that
arguing for an agnostic approach is itself an approach, but I can't
think of any other way out of this particular Klein bottle). From the
standpoint of K12 grammar, it's enough that we recognize that
constructions *are* different, and that we have some handy terms to use.


It's possible that we could reach consensus on particular terms on the
basis of pedagogic utility. I'd argue that a three-way split of "phrase
vs. reduced clause vs. full clause" is handy in the classroom, since
students frequently don't want to lump "giving Athelfrith some lutfisk"
together with "a book." But I'd be willing to back down on that,
especially if a lot of other people disagreed with me. We just need an
organized way of resolving that kind of dispute, and (on an individual
basis) be willing to accept compromises. Optimally, the same basic
category terms would be used in 2nd and 11th grade, but with additional
recognized subcategories at the higher grade levels.

Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University




-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edward Vavra
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase

Craig,
    Your post is very interesting, but it does not go far enough. I
would say that ATEG is a dangerous organization. (There are times when
I'm sorry that I started it.) Your explanations for the "hiatus" are
good, but they underemphasize the self-interest of many of the ATEG
members--their desire to defend their own brands of grammar. Are the
numerous "explanations" ("clause or phrase") not poisonous for teachers
and students? The major problem with instruction in grammar is the
confusion in the terminology, but members of ATEG cannot even divide
into sub-groups to establish different scope and sequence designs. Nor
it seems, can they agree that students at a given grade level should be
able to identify the clauses in typical writing by students in their own
grade level. (A major part of this problem is that members cannot agree
on the definition of a clause.)
     I basically gave up on ATEG after the first Seattle conference. (I
believe it was in 2000?) At that conference, I suggested two or three
separate groups (for different designs), but that was shot down. ATEG
was going to make one "scope and sequence" design. We can see, almost a
decade later, how that worked out. I remember pouting at the conference.
(I'm a little boy at heart.) Meanwhile, of course, a decade's worth of
students have gone through school with minimal, and usually poor
instruction in grammar.
    I decided that ATEG is useless, or actually harmful. In that it
claims to be teaching grammar, it appears to fill a void. But all it
really does is add to the confusion. As you know, I've been spending my
time on the KISS curriculum -- a very definite "scope and sequence"
plan. http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/kiss/wb/PBooks/index.htm
    Thanks for bringing this question up, but I really don't see ATEG
developing one plan, and it appears that members are afraid of the
competition that would result from several plans. 

Ed V. 




-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2008 11:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: scope and sequence: was clause or phrase

Richard,
   Scope and sequence is in a bit of hiatus. This might be a good time 
to talk about the reasons for that and the difficulties around doing 
that through ATEG.
   My own frustration dates back to two conferences ago, when I thought 
we would make great progress on scope and sequence at the conference. My

plan, which I thought was agreed on by the conference committee, was to 
break into subgroups and have people make suggestions about what might 
be covered. We could have a sub-group making recommendations about 
Standard English, punctuation, and so on, focusing on the knowledge 
about language that wold be most helpful and useful. I was hoping people

would then feel a vested interest in  the project. There was resistance,

though, from different sources. Some people questioned whether ATEG, as 
a sub-group of NCTE, should be taking a position on grammar at odds with

our parent organization. That conflict of interest has been a constant 
issue in ATEG, and I don't fault anyone from bringing it up. One result 
was that we largely used our time to construct a position statement 
asking NCTE to endorse the systematic teaching of grammar. The position 
statement, which I thought was very thoughtful and nicely written, was 
simply tabled at the NCTE convention. In other words,  ATEG tried to 
work through official channels as a sub-group of NCTE, ibut was stymied 
by those who feel they know more about this than we do and who, in 
effect, control our existence as an organization.
   The other problem came from those at the conference, including the 
leadership, who feel that scope and sequence already exists and that we 
have no need to construct one. My own tendency has been to lobby for new

ways of looking at grammar, but ATEG has long been an organization made 
up of people with fairly conservative (not regressive, not by a long 
shot) views.  This was hard on me because I felt I had a lot invested in

the project, but would be asked to shut out from the conversation the 
new possibilities in grammar that excite me the most.
   But let me give a more friendly view of that. Many of us involved in 
the project have written books on the subject, and you can't really do 
that without engaging the issue in ways that you feel invested in. What 
happens if the group advocates a scope that doesn't fit those views? 
   I sometimes feel I am shooting myself in the foot every time I move 
on in my thinking because I have a 2005 text that now constitutes an 
older position.
   This might be a way of saying that those of us who know the most tend

to have an investment in particular approaches. For ATEG as a whole, 
those approaches have probably already been written.
   As many of you know, much of the conversation about scope and 
sequence was worked out by the New Public Grammar group. I have never 
wanted that group to be in conflict (to compete with) ATEG. So at that 
point, I didn't even feel comfortable airing these frustrations on the 
NPG list. I was, and still am, nervous about creating a rift in the 
public grammar community. I didn't want anyone to feel I was trying to 
pull people away from ATEG.
   The unfortunate result has been that Scope and sequence hasn't moved 
forward for some time. A few of us have been in discussion about 
starting it back up again as we restart talk on the NPG list.
   NPG has the benefit of being separate from NCTE. It can take a strong

contrary perspective and not feel uncomfortable about that.
   It can also maintain friendly relationships with ATEG without the 
necessity of ATEG endorsing its views.
   I apologize if I have  misrepresented anyone's views or anyone else's

views about the history of the project. I don't think of it as anyone 
being at fault. These are very predictable difficulties given the nature

of the project.

Craig

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