Hi Nancy --
I agree to a large extent about the problems with Google searches -- I
could, for example, find large numbers of examples of people using an
apostrophe to mark a simple plural on Google, but that doesn't mean that
usage is accepted. On the other hand, it's very hard to separate rules
of usage *from* usage over the long term -- that is, as your discussion
of "graduated from high school" vs. "was graduated from high school" on
the website showed, changes *do* become established. Part of the dynamic
has to do with who is using which version, hence my attempt to focus on
"mainstream" institutions.
As an analogous example, consider the modern usage of "impact" as a verb
to mean something very much like "affect." I loathe this usage -- and I
think previous generations would have objected to it as well. However, I
can no longer argue that it's not an *established* usage, or criticize
students overmuch for using it (well, I do still criticize them, but I
don't mark points off, and I feel guilty). In the case of rules for
which there is a long track record in stylebooks and the like -- "infer"
vs. "imply," for example -- we can at least argue that a large number of
editors are probably enforcing the rule even if most people ignore it.
In cases on which the prescriptive record is silent, it's harder to make
that kind of argument. I honestly don't *know* what a thousand randomly
chosen editors would do with "masters degree." *If* a large majority
accepts it, I can't really argue that they're "wrong" in the same way I
could argue that they'd be wrong if they claimed the value of pi were
5.24. With prescriptive grammar, within certain limits, consensus
*creates* the rule.
The argument for "master's degree" makes perfect sense given the history
of the term, but most people don't actually think about the history when
they use it, even if they know the history in the first place. They
certainly don't seem to use the noun as a possessive -- "John's master's
degree" is not a degree held by John's master, but "John's sister's
husband" is the husband of John's sister. "Master's" doesn't "stack"
with possessives the way another possessive would.
-- Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Master's vs. Masters
Hi, Bill.
We have another article discussing the difference between the
attributive
and the possessive (http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/082504.htm).
There we make the same points you have made and would, therefore, agree
with
nearly every example you provided in your post.
However, don't see how the _Chicago_ statement about the attributive
applies
to the apostrophe in "master's degree" (and I wouldn't capitalize it in
the
generic--only in reference to a particular degree). I'm also a bit
skeptical
about using a Google search as much more than evidence that lots of
people
find this usage issue confusing--even well educated people. I know many
people who don't realize, for example, that only a small handful of
style
books drop the "s" after a singular possessive noun that ends with an s
(as
in "Bess's dress"). People tend to perpetuate whatever rules they were
taught (or internalized) concerning a usage issue without research,
don't
you agree?--and that includes public relations folks who write Web pages
for
colleges.
I must confess that I have a real problem with "mens clothing." I'll
have to
go back and dig up that discussion in the archives!
I know that I am a recovering prescriptivist, but I'm having trouble
with
this one . . . I guess the larger question (and one that pops up here
often) is where do we draw the line between prescription and description
and
still be helpful to the person on the street who wants advice?
Best,
Nancy
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 4:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Master's vs. Masters
Nancy,
That's a very useful (and approachable!) article. I'm wondering,
however, if a clear consensus exists among editors that the
"apostropheless" version is *wrong*; a quick Google search shows that a
number of institutions use it, and while the Google sample was
top-weighted for distance-learning programs (which can be a
bit...er...unauthoritative), that's to be expected from an online
search, given the way Google ranks pages. University of Georgia and
University of Nebraska seem to use the apostropheless version in at
least some cases, and they aren't degree mills.
My old desk copy of the Random House dictionary uses the version with
the apostrophe, but _The Chicago Manual of Style_ (14th ed.) includes a
statement that would seem to give it tacit approval (p. 200):
"Among some circles there is a penchant for omitting the
apostrophe from what are sometimes regarded as possessive
constructions. Some business establishments and factories, for example,
refer to the cafeteria for their employees as the 'employees
cafeteria' ...Actually, this might properly be said to constitute an
attributive rather than a possessive use of nouns. A noun is
functioning attributively if it performs an adjectival role in modifying
a following noun....As in so many other matters of style,
consistency is to be encouraged"
In short, the _Manual_ allows this kind of usage as long as one sticks
with it (despite the expectation set up by the use of "penchant" in that
quote, the section doesn't condemn the practice at all). And, of course,
there's a kind of legal argument: if the University of Nebraska gives
you a diploma that says you've earned a "Masters Degree," then that is
exactly what you've got.
There are other cases in which what was originally a possessive has been
officially reanalyzed as a classifier but has retained the final -s
(this reminds me of a conversation on the list a while back about "men's
clothing" vs. "mens clothing"). A number of years ago, the bureau in
charge of official landscape feature names in the U.S. (I *think* it's
the US Geological Survey) switched from "Pike's Peak" to "Pikes Peak."
Most people visiting the spot knew its name, but had no idea there was
anyone named Pike it was named after (after all, it's hard to credit him
with discovering it, since we have -- finally -- grown a bit nervous
about pretending that the Native American groups who lived next to
mountains and rivers for millennia never managed to notice them). On the
other hand, there's a plant whose name seems evenly split between
"Viper's Bugloss" and "Vipers Bugloss," though I doubt there are many
people who have really thought about why a viper would need some bugloss
in the first place; heaven knows what they do with the stuff. Given
enough use, these modifiers simply become part of set expressions, and
punctuation changes can register this shift.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Master's vs. Masters
Hi, Warren. A colleague and I wrote a short article on that topic (and
other
issues related to graduation) a few years ago. You can read it at
http://www.getitwriteonline.com/archive/052101.htm. Your question is
addressed in the last paragraph. I hope that it is helpful.
Best,
Nancy
Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
Professor of English
Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
Columbia College
Columbia, South Carolina
[log in to unmask]
803-786-3706
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Warren Sieme
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Master's vs. Masters
After I completed my undergraduate degree, I elected to continue on to
graduate school. My question is: Did I recieve a "Master's Degree,"
i.e. a degree belonging to a Master ( I will humbly interject here that
there is in reality, precious little that I feel myself a 'master' of),
or a "Masters Degree," that is a degree denoting that I am a master of
several things somehow related to teaching. I've looked at a few random
websites; some schools use the "apostrophe-'s'" and others the 's'
without an apostrophe. Opinions, comments, clarifications?
Warren
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! -
http://mail.aol.com
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
