I am a newcomer to this list, so bear with me if this topic has been
discussed recently.

The topic of who/whom reminds me of discussions I've had about with
colleagues about that and which.

I distinguish between the two: that opens essential clauses and which
opens nonessential clauses.

But I notice that which is very often used to open essential clauses.

Am I wrong?  Is its use changing so that it is no longer used for only
nonessential clauses?

Perhaps I am sliding into hypercorrection on this point.

Help!

Christine Gray

Mike Garant wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> FYI.  Historically, many upper-class southern men were
> educated in the North at West Point and other
> universities and schools and/or spent time abroad on
> trade missions and the like.  So, they tended to have
> a different accent than upper-class women who tended
> to live only in the South.  So, women historically
> probably had heavier accents so one gets the
> sterotyped 'Southern Belle'.
> Best, Mike
>
> --- "Glauner, Jeff" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > You're right about attitudes toward dialect.  You
> > probably did your survey
> > in California where you would expect reactions like
> > the ones you got.
> > Unfortunately, you'd get much the same in states
> > where southern dialects are
> > standard.  Labov got those sorts of reactions to
> > pronunciation in New York
> > City.  So in describing attitudes, the term class is
> > probably indispensable.
> > I would, however, like to see us move away from the
> > use of terms in our
> > general discussion of dialect that seem to imply a
> > social hierarchy of
> > better and worse people based upon dialect.
> >
> > I'm not trying to be politically correct.  I get in
> > trouble constantly for
> > not being politically correct.  I just hate what
> > they are trying to do in
> > Texas to their drawl.  I visited Houston recently
> > and discovered that many
> > native Texans have quit drawling.  I miss that
> > lopsided little heist of the
> > upper lip. When I asked about the negative attitude
> > toward the Texas
> > dialect, I was told that it was an economic thang.
> > No classy jobs for
> > drawlers.
> >
> > Jeff Glauner
> > Associate Professor of English
> > Park University, Box 1303
> > 8700 River Park Drive
> > Parkville MO 64152
> > [log in to unmask]
> > http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johanna Rubba [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:35 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: who or whom
> >
> >
> > Thanks, Jeff, you've nicely depicted how messy it is
> > to try to delimit
> > and label dialects. Finding social features that
> > consistently align with
> > dialect features is probably impossible, especially
> > if you want a
> > fine-grained analysis.
> >
> > Perhaps objectively and scientifically class isn't a
> > correct defining
> > parameter for dialect differences in  our society.
> > When we consider
> > language attitudes, however,  I think class is an
> > important social
> > construct precisely because of the superior/inferior
> > values that are
> > attached to it. In a Hairston-like survey that I did
> > with a class of
> > mine, we found that dialect features associated with
> > less-educated
> > speakers (such as double negation and third-person
> > 'don't') elicited far
> > more consistently negative responses than dialect
> > features that are
> > nonstandard (that is, incorrect from the trad.
> > grammar point of view)
> > but appear in the dialect of educated speakers (such
> > as 'between you and
> > I' or failure to use 'whom' in an object position).
> > Judging from their
> > self-idenitifications, most of our respondents held
> > positions that would
> > be considered middle to upper-class. So the kinds of
> > 'mistakes' that
> > they themselves might make were judged much more
> > acceptable than the
> > kinds of 'mistakes' that people from less-successful
> > groups might make.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Johanna Rubba   Associate Professor, Linguistics
> > English Department, California Polytechnic State
> > University
> > One Grand Avenue  * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> > Tel. (805)-756-2184  *  Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept.
> > Phone.  756-2596
> > * E-mail: [log in to unmask] *  Home page:
> > http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
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> =====
>
> Mike Garant, Senior Lecturer
>
> (I'll be moving to the University of Tampere, Finland and Tampere Polytechnic in September)
>
> University of Helsinki Department of Translation Studies in Kouvola
>
> P.O. Box 94, FIN-45101 Kouvola, Finland TEL 05 825 2210  FAX 05 825 2251
>
> Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
>
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