Dear Christine:
In answer to your question, if you insist on THAT (given the that/which
choice) as the only correct pronoun for restrictive clauses then, yes, you
have indeed slid into hypercorrection. I think that if you started
counting the uses of WHICH for those essential clauses in public writing
(even on this listserv), you'd find that they outnumber THAT.
I prefer the rhythm of THAT; it sounds smoother to me, so I'm a bit of a
stickler in my own writing. It's easy to figure out which one is called
for, however; if you can substitute THAT for the WHICH that you've written,
then leave out the commas (even if you retain the WHICH).
But you should also read Brock Haussamen's discussion of this issue in the
second edition of Revising the Rules. He discusses an in-between kind of
clause amplifying the noun rather than defining it. "Amplifying clauses
explain, expand, explicate" (p. 95) The amplifying clause is not set off
by commas, yet it's also not what we would call restrictive. Here are some
student examples from his discussion, where the clause amplifies the
prenoun modifer:
The main character was a rich, egotistic young man who seemed to
think of himself as better than those around him.
We often have to find forgiving employers who will allow us to work
unusual schedules so that we can meet our nursing obligations. I have a
strict schedule that does not allow many deviations.
Brock also quotes the following example from Quirk et al (p. 1257)"
All this I gave up for the mother who needed me.
And this one from the New York Times:
How fitting, then, that the Nobel Prize in Literature comes to Ms.
Gordimer as her country begins to dismantle the system that she has opposed
with such urgency.
Here's Brock's conclusion to this discussion:
"But if we wish to continue classifying clauses using anything like the
present categories, we should add a middle category-the amplifying
clause-if the schema is to be reasonably precise. And I think, while we
are at it, we could improve the nomenclature by dropping the distracting
name nonrestrictive and replacing it with supplemental. The third category
would remain the restrictive clause, defined as we define it now" (96).
Revising the Rules: Traditional Grammar and Modern Linguistics is published
by Kendall/Hunt. In it he discusses the history of the prescriptive rules
that fill our grammar books. Every teacher should read it!
Martha Kolln
>I am a newcomer to this list, so bear with me if this topic has been
>discussed recently.
>
>The topic of who/whom reminds me of discussions I've had about with
>colleagues about that and which.
>
>I distinguish between the two: that opens essential clauses and which
>opens nonessential clauses.
>
>But I notice that which is very often used to open essential clauses.
>
>Am I wrong? Is its use changing so that it is no longer used for only
>nonessential clauses?
>
>Perhaps I am sliding into hypercorrection on this point.
>
>Help!
>
>Christine Gray
>
>Mike Garant wrote:
>>
>> Hi All,
>> FYI. Historically, many upper-class southern men were
>> educated in the North at West Point and other
>> universities and schools and/or spent time abroad on
>> trade missions and the like. So, they tended to have
>> a different accent than upper-class women who tended
>> to live only in the South. So, women historically
>> probably had heavier accents so one gets the
>> sterotyped 'Southern Belle'.
>> Best, Mike
>>
>> --- "Glauner, Jeff" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> > You're right about attitudes toward dialect. You
>> > probably did your survey
>> > in California where you would expect reactions like
>> > the ones you got.
>> > Unfortunately, you'd get much the same in states
>> > where southern dialects are
>> > standard. Labov got those sorts of reactions to
>> > pronunciation in New York
>> > City. So in describing attitudes, the term class is
>> > probably indispensable.
>> > I would, however, like to see us move away from the
>> > use of terms in our
>> > general discussion of dialect that seem to imply a
>> > social hierarchy of
>> > better and worse people based upon dialect.
>> >
>> > I'm not trying to be politically correct. I get in
>> > trouble constantly for
>> > not being politically correct. I just hate what
>> > they are trying to do in
>> > Texas to their drawl. I visited Houston recently
>> > and discovered that many
>> > native Texans have quit drawling. I miss that
>> > lopsided little heist of the
>> > upper lip. When I asked about the negative attitude
>> > toward the Texas
>> > dialect, I was told that it was an economic thang.
>> > No classy jobs for
>> > drawlers.
>> >
>> > Jeff Glauner
>> > Associate Professor of English
>> > Park University, Box 1303
>> > 8700 River Park Drive
>> > Parkville MO 64152
>> > [log in to unmask]
>> > http://www.park.edu/jglauner/index.htm
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Johanna Rubba [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:35 PM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: who or whom
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks, Jeff, you've nicely depicted how messy it is
>> > to try to delimit
>> > and label dialects. Finding social features that
>> > consistently align with
>> > dialect features is probably impossible, especially
>> > if you want a
>> > fine-grained analysis.
>> >
>> > Perhaps objectively and scientifically class isn't a
>> > correct defining
>> > parameter for dialect differences in our society.
>> > When we consider
>> > language attitudes, however, I think class is an
>> > important social
>> > construct precisely because of the superior/inferior
>> > values that are
>> > attached to it. In a Hairston-like survey that I did
>> > with a class of
>> > mine, we found that dialect features associated with
>> > less-educated
>> > speakers (such as double negation and third-person
>> > 'don't') elicited far
>> > more consistently negative responses than dialect
>> > features that are
>> > nonstandard (that is, incorrect from the trad.
>> > grammar point of view)
>> > but appear in the dialect of educated speakers (such
>> > as 'between you and
>> > I' or failure to use 'whom' in an object position).
>> > Judging from their
>> > self-idenitifications, most of our respondents held
>> > positions that would
>> > be considered middle to upper-class. So the kinds of
>> > 'mistakes' that
>> > they themselves might make were judged much more
>> > acceptable than the
>> > kinds of 'mistakes' that people from less-successful
>> > groups might make.
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > Johanna Rubba Associate Professor, Linguistics
>> > English Department, California Polytechnic State
>> > University
>> > One Grand Avenue * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
>> > Tel. (805)-756-2184 * Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept.
>> > Phone. 756-2596
>> > * E-mail: [log in to unmask] * Home page:
>> > http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> >
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>>
>> =====
>>
>> Mike Garant, Senior Lecturer
>>
>> (I'll be moving to the University of Tampere, Finland and Tampere
>>Polytechnic in September)
>>
>> University of Helsinki Department of Translation Studies in Kouvola
>>
>> P.O. Box 94, FIN-45101 Kouvola, Finland TEL 05 825 2210 FAX 05 825 2251
>>
>> Associate Editor of AEQ: http://rapidintellect.com/AEQweb/
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>
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