Yes, but this isn't a problem for publishers of grammar books, magazine and book editors and on and on. It seems only to be baffling to members of this group. Certainly there are issues of the when and how to teach it, but what to teach was worked out long ago and does not baffle most people charged with the responsibility to write or publish books about it. If you go to Barnes and Noble or Borders and look in children's books you see the publishers are not in the least baffled about any of this. Whatever the schools are doing, the publishers are taking the high ground by making good grammar available to at least the parents. As a matter of fact, I think the publishers would be quite baffled by this group and the dilemas posed by it.
The publishers and authors of the Chicago Manual of Style, Strunk and White and so on for example, don't have that much problem with it. If a certification was based on such established works you can be sure it would gain wide acceptance in education and business except perhaps by those in the area who don't know their stuff. Someone out there may be in a position to develop and offer such a certification. I suspect it would be quite good for any department to do so. NCTE and ATEG and the DOE would be well advised to offer just such a certification.
I would be happy to chair a committee willing to explore the possibilities, establish standards, and begin the process.
Phil Bralich
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Aug 30, 2006 12:21 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>
>Your example raises the question of what should be on such a test, which
>gets us right back to the question of what a grammar curriculum should
>cover.
>
>The guard saw the escapee running through the tall grass.
>
>"Running through the tall grass" here can be either an adjective clause
>or an object complement, although I find the OC interpretation more
>obvious. If I front the participial phrase,
>
>Running through the tall grass, the guard saw the escapee,
>
>it becomes adverbial.
>
>But we're still back to the question of what people should know if they
>are to know grammar.
>
>Herb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil Bralich
>Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 10:47 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>
>That's nice, but it still leaves room for someone not to know that
>participial phrase and a reduced adejective clause are the same thing.
>A certification test for grammar alone independent of getting a Master's
>would be a real service for those who want and can teach grammar and for
>those who want to hire qualified grammar teachers. It is also one more
>line, one more certification on a C.V. so it cannot be a bad thing.
>This would have been the best response to reports that grammar study was
>somehow unimportant or ineffective. I have always been convinced that
>most of the anti-grammar movement got its support primarily from those
>afraid of being called to account for an insufficient background in
>grammar. To this day whenever I hear someone extolling anti-grammar
>attitudes I immediately know they will be EXTREMELY defensive about
>their knowledge of grammar. Certification would take the bogey of
>anti-grammar off the table and force everyone to do a few exercises
>(which by the way is the fastest most efficient way to learn grammar).
>
>Phil Bralich
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>>Sent: Aug 29, 2006 6:34 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>>
>>Ball State's MA TESOL program has always been somewhat conservative in
>its curriculum. We require a basic linguistics coures, a grammar
>course, a phonetics course, and a contrastive pragmatics class, as well
>as the usual methods and other things. Grammar is also included in the
>methods courses.
>>
>>Herb
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Phil
>Bralich
>>Sent: Tue 8/29/2006 5:12 PM
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>>
>>I am aware of that but this would be for grammar alone and would be a
>bit more stringent. As you know TESOL was particularly hard hit by the
>anti-grammar attitude and most out there still don't know their grammar.
>However, I would't mind seeing the criteria for the grammar section are
>you aware of where I could find one.
>>
>>Also this grammar certificate would be independent of an MA program. I
>would be available for teachers from a a vareity of backgrounds in a
>vareity of classes that may be called on to teach grammar in one of its
>many forms which often would NOT require an MA in TESOL and for which in
>fact an MA in TESOL may be wholly inappropriate.
>>
>>Phil Bralich
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: dabro
>> Sent: Aug 29, 2006 6:03 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Grammar Certification
>>
>>
>> Phil:
>>
>> That's included in any "legitimate" Graduate TESL Certificate
>Course, such as the one that I completed at Cal State, Long Beach.
>>
>> http://www.csulb.edu/depts/ling/certificate.htm
>>
>> Unfortunately, many prospective ESL teachers look for the
>quickest and cheapest piece of paper they can find.
>>
>> http://www.aacircle.com.au/tesl_tefl.htm
>>
>> Peace,
>>
>> David Brown
>> ESL/EFL Teacher
>> Long Beach, CA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue 08/29, Phil Bralich < [log in to unmask] > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Phil Bralich [mailto: [log in to unmask]]
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:01:25 -0400
>> Subject: Grammar Certification
>>
>> I suggested earlier that those who need to hire teachers
>to teach grammar should have prospects pass a grammar test to ensure
>that the teacher's were qualified. It also might demonstrate if they are
>interested. A number of posts suggested this could be problematic for a
>number of reasaons. However, perhaps a grammar teacher certification
>would be the better idea. A certification indicating that teacher's were
>qualified to teach grammar to native speakers and another for ESL
>teachers who wanted to teach ESL grammar (perhaps an advanced
>certification for TOEFL grammar). This would give employers something to
>add to their considerations when considering candidates and this would
>give people who genuinely know their grammar a chance to demonstrate it
>and get job preference in these situations. Thus helping get the grammar
>jobs to the grammar incllined and away from those who are either
>anti-grammar or grammar deluded (e.g. think they know grammar but do
>not).
>>
>> Phil Bralich
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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