I am from the Deep South and have heard only "a history" and "an historic"
with the 'h' in historic not pronounced
except in slow formal discourse with each word accented and a full plus
juncture between each word. In other words,
even the university professors in schools or at SAMLA conventions normally
said "a history" but "an historic
[moment]."
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 26 Aug 2011 to 27 Aug 2011 (#2011-160)
There are 6 messages totalling 4114 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Grammar Question (6)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 11:33:00 -0500
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
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I certainly agree with you when it comes to usage and the folly of pressing
an "error" issue here, but I don't necessarily think "an historic hurricane=
"
sounds more grammatical than "a historic hurricane." I'm going purely off o=
f
my instinct as a native speaker of English; perhaps there is a
regional/dialectal aspect concerning the degree to which one pronounces the
"h."
"An historic hurricane" doesn't sound ungrammatical to me, just odd. I see
what you're saying about the eliding that can take place, but it rings in m=
y
ear as something done by people "not from around here."
I'll keep my ears open and listen for local usage. Maybe I'm off base on
this.
John
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>wr=
ote:
> Let's not dismiss this one so easily.
>
> In spite of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying
> "a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic
> hurricane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a
> historic" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's
> right). However, if (as I would argue every native speaker does
> automatically), the sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h,=
"
> tonally forming one word "anistoric," then "an historic hurricane" is the
> proper choice - both orally and in writing. And why would the emphasis be
> placed on an indefinite article anyway? If we were talking about "the
> historic hurricane," then it makes some sense to emphasize "the," separat=
ing
> tonally the two words.
>
> The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a
> grammar problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even i=
f
> we agree that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage are worth
> fighting over? My feeling is that this judgment should be based on meanin=
g -
> does the "error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to
> meet just about any criteria that calls for correction. In fact, correcti=
ng
> this "error" may even reach the level of "hyper-correctness" where being
> "right" sounds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and, as
> mentioned earlier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm), so that not
> only does "an historic" not affect the meaning negatively, it actually
> enhances the meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a select
> audience to focus on what is being said rather than how it is being said.
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
>
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know the
> answer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "historic". =
I
> guess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" with a silent "=
h".
> Carol
> --- On *Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:07 PM
>
> Carol, either is "correct." It simply depends on the idiolect of the
> individual speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the
> "h" or does not pronounce the "h". I am unaware of any prescriptive case
> for the superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph winds,
> for that matter ;) .
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
> To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm
> Subject: Grammar Question
>
> A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an
> historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?
> Thanks!
> Carol
>
> --- On *Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc=
[log in to unmask]>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.=
[log in to unmask]>
> >
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 PM
>
> Thank you, Geoff =96 Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful!
>
> Kathi
> P.S. I don=92t know why the cc didn=92t work; the address is correct.
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> mailto:[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
[log in to unmask]&>]
> *On Behalf Of *Geoffrey Layton
> *Sent:* Friday, August 26, 2011 10:39 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Membership in ATEG
>
> Kathi - I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I
> tried to copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkbet=
[log in to unmask]>.
>
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
[log in to unmask]>
> I never received acknowledgement when I joined, so I am not sure if I am
> even on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my
> membership status?
>
> Kathi
>
> Kathleen Bethell
> Assistant Professor
> Liberal Arts, English
> Ivy Tech Community College
> 200 Daniels Way
> Bloomington, IN 47404
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> mailto:[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
[log in to unmask]&>]
> *On Behalf Of *Amy Benjamin
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:33 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Membership in ATEG
>
> As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals are stacked and stampled in our
> mailroom (aka my basement) ready to go out to ATEG members. As we now do
> have a better system of keeping track of, acknowledging, and servicing AT=
EG
> members, please consider joining officially.
>
> See www.ateg.org for details, which are, we are happy to report, now
> accurate!
>
> Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, published twice
> yearly, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent organization,
> NCTE. We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed to host a
> session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual conference,
> gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking,
> non-English-speaking, and non-speaking world, and non-world who are
> interested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people ca=
n
> fit easily into one room.
>
> So keep those cards and letters coming!
> Amy Benjamin
> ATEG co-president
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
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> leave the list"
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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> leave the list"
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> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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>
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--bcaec5299a0b4745d704ab7f3827
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I certainly agree with you when it comes to usage and the folly of pressing=
an "error" issue here, but I don't necessarily think "a=
n historic hurricane" sounds more grammatical than "a historic hu=
rricane." I'm going purely off of my instinct as a native speaker =
of English; perhaps there is a regional/dialectal aspect concerning the deg=
ree to which one pronounces the "h." <br>
<br>"An historic hurricane" doesn't sound ungrammatical to me=
, just odd. I see what you're saying about the eliding that can take pl=
ace, but it rings in my ear as something done by people "not from arou=
nd here." <br>
<br>I'll keep my ears open and listen for local usage. Maybe I'm of=
f base on this.<br><br>John<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 2=
6, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailt=
o:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">
Let's not dismiss this one so easily. <br>=A0<br>In spite of what Gramm=
ar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying "a historic hurric=
ane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic hurricane&q=
uot;? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a histor=
ic" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's =
right). However, if (as I would argue every native speaker does automatical=
ly), the sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h," t=
onally forming one word "anistoric," then "an historic hurri=
cane" is the proper choice - both orally and in writing. And why would=
the emphasis be placed on an indefinite=A0article anyway? If we were talki=
ng about "the historic hurricane," then it makes some sense to em=
phasize "the," separating tonally the two words. <br>
=A0<br>The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a=
grammar problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even if=
we agree that "a historic" is "right") which "err=
ors" of usage are worth fighting over? My feeling is that this judgmen=
t=A0should be based on=A0meaning - does the "error" affect the me=
aning? So this one ("an historic") fails to meet just about any c=
riteria that calls for correction. In fact, correcting this "error&quo=
t; may even reach the level of=A0"hyper-correctness" where being =
"right" sounds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and=
, as mentioned earlier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm), so that n=
ot only does "an historic" not affect the meaning negatively, it =
actually enhances the meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a se=
lect audience to focus on what is being said rather than how it is being sa=
id.<br>
<br>Geoff Layton<br>=A0<br><div><hr>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700<b=
r>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">carolly=
[log in to unmask]</a><div><div></div><div class=3D"h5"><br>Subject: Re: Gramm=
ar Question<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><br><br><table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacin=
g=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"font:inherit;font-size-adjust:inherit;font-=
stretch:inherit" valign=3D"top">
<div>Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know t=
he answer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used=
in front of "historic".=A0I guess you would only use "an&qu=
ot; if you pronounce "historic" with a silent "h".</div=
>
<div>Carol<br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <i><<a href=3D"mailto:=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> wrot=
e:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb=
(16, 16, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid"><br>From: Brad=
Layton <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">laytonca=
[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, Augus=
t 26, 2011, 8:07 PM<br><br>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"black" =
face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">
<div><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Carol, either is "cor=
rect."=A0 It simply depends on the idiolect of the individual</font> s=
peaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the "h" =
or does not pronounce the "h".=A0 I am unaware of any prescriptiv=
e case for the superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph w=
inds, for that matter ;) .<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"clear:both"></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"color:black;font-family:helvetica, arial;font-size:10pt">----=
-Original Message-----<br>From: Carol Morrison <<a href=3D"mailto:caroll=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To: A=
TEG <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm<br>Subject: Grammar Question<br><br>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">
<div>A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane&qu=
ot; or "an historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?</di=
v>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div>Carol<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <i><<a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> wrot=
e:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb=
(16, 16, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid"><br>From: Kath=
leen Bethell <<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">kbethell@IVYTEC=
H.EDU</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yah=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D=
"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:=
16 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Thank you, Geoff =96 Amy already got in=
touch. ATEG folks are wonderful! </span></font></div></div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=A0</span></font></div></div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Kathi</span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">P.S. I don=92t know why the cc didn=92t=
work; the address is correct.</span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=A0</span></font> </div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:rgb(181, 196, 223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span=
style=3D"font-size:10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a=
href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU&" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Geoff=
rey Layton<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 26, 201=
1 10:39 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D=
"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: Membership in
ATEG</span></font></div></div></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=A0</span></font> </div>
<div>
<div><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Kathi =
- I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tried to=
copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for <a href=3D"ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"=
nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>. <br>
<br>Geoff Layton<br>=A0</span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center"><font face=3D"Tahoma" siz=
e=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<hr align=3D"center" width=3D"100%" size=3D"2">
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt">Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400<br>From: <a hr=
ef=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]"=
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yah=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D=
"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">I never received acknowledgement when I=
joined, so I am not sure if I am even on the rolls, yet. Is there some way=
I can check to find out my membership status?</span></font><font face=3D"T=
ahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" =
size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Kathi</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" =
size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Kathleen Bethell</span></font><font fac=
e=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>=
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Assistant Professor</span></font><font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </=
div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Liberal Arts, English</span></font><fon=
t face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> =
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Ivy Tech Community College</span></font=
><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></f=
ont> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">200 Daniels Way</span></font><font face=
=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Bloomington, IN 47404</span></font><fon=
t face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> =
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" =
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<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:windowtext;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span=
style=3D"font-size:10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a=
href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU&" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Amy B=
enjamin<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, August 20, 2=
011 10:33 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
U" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Membership in
ATEG</span></font></div></div></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-si=
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<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals=A0are stacked a=
nd stampled in our mailroom (aka=A0my basement)=A0ready to go out to ATEG m=
embers. As we now do have a better system of keeping track of, acknowledgin=
g, and servicing ATEG members, please consider joining officially. </span><=
/font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></spa=
n></font></div>
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<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
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n style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">See <a href=3D"http://www.ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofollow" =
target=3D"_blank">www.ateg.org</a> for details, which are, we are happy to =
report, now accurate!</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
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<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, =
published twice yearly, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent=
organization, NCTE. We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowe=
d to host a session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual c=
onference, gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking,=
non-English-speaking, and non-speaking world, and non-world=A0who are inte=
rested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can fit =
easily into one room. </span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
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<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">So keep those cards and letters coming!</span></font><=
font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></fon=
t></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">Amy Benjamin</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">ATEG co-president</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" s=
ize=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
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quot;Join or leave the list"=20
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uot;Join or leave the list"=20
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--bcaec5299a0b4745d704ab7f3827--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 09:50:01 -0700
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
--0-785681720-1314463801=:7647
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For some reason "an historic event" sounds better than "a historic event," =
but I agree with John that "a historic hurricane" sounds less awkward than =
"an historic hurricane." Perhaps, as Geoff said, when one says: "anistoric =
event," "an historic" is pronounced as one word because the word event foll=
ows it, and "event" begins with a vowel. It is easier to say "A=C2=A0histor=
ic hurricane" because both "h's" are pronounced, and "an historic hurricane=
" sounds too wordy or awkward.=C2=A0(I know none of that probably=C2=A0made=
any sense).
Carol
--- On Sat, 8/27/11, John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Saturday, August 27, 2011, 12:33 PM
I certainly agree with you when it comes to usage and the folly of pressing=
an "error" issue here, but I don't necessarily think "an historic hurrican=
e" sounds more grammatical than "a historic hurricane." I'm going purely of=
f of my instinct as a native speaker of English; perhaps there is a regiona=
l/dialectal aspect concerning the degree to which one pronounces the "h."=
=20
"An historic hurricane" doesn't sound ungrammatical to me, just odd. I see =
what you're saying about the eliding that can take place, but it rings in m=
y ear as something done by people "not from around here."=20
I'll keep my ears open and listen for local usage. Maybe I'm off base on th=
is.
John
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> w=
rote:
Let's not dismiss this one so easily.=20
=C2=A0
In spite of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying "=
a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic hurr=
icane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a historic"=
sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's right). Howe=
ver, if (as I would argue every native speaker does automatically), the sou=
nd of the article is naturally elided with the "h," tonally forming one wor=
d "anistoric," then "an historic hurricane" is the proper choice - both ora=
lly and in writing. And why would the emphasis be placed on an indefinite=
=C2=A0article anyway? If we were talking about "the historic hurricane," th=
en it makes some sense to emphasize "the," separating tonally the two words=
.=20
=C2=A0
The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a gramma=
r problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even if we agr=
ee that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage are worth fighting=
over? My feeling is that this judgment=C2=A0should be based on=C2=A0meanin=
g - does the "error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails =
to meet just about any criteria that calls for correction. In fact, correct=
ing this "error" may even reach the level of=C2=A0"hyper-correctness" where=
being "right" sounds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and, a=
s mentioned earlier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm), so that not =
only does "an historic" not affect the meaning negatively, it actually enha=
nces the meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a select audience=
to focus on what is being said rather than how it is being said.
Geoff Layton
=C2=A0
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]
Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know the an=
swer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "historic".=C2=
=A0I guess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" with a silen=
t "h".
Carol
--- On Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:07 PM
Carol, either is "correct."=C2=A0 It simply depends on the idiolect of the =
individual speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the "h=
" or does not pronounce the "h".=C2=A0 I am unaware of any prescriptive cas=
e for the superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph winds,=
for that matter ;) .
-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm
Subject: Grammar Question
A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an hist=
oric hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?
Thanks!
Carol
--- On Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 PM
Thank you, Geoff =E2=80=93 Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderf=
ul!=20
=C2=A0
Kathi=20
P.S. I don=E2=80=99t know why the cc didn=E2=80=99t work; the address is co=
rrect.=20
=C2=A0=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
=C2=A0=20
Kathi - I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tr=
ied to copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for kbethel=
[log in to unmask]
Geoff Layton
=C2=A0
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
To: [log in to unmask]
I never received acknowledgement when I joined, so I am not sure if I am ev=
en on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my membersh=
ip status?
=C2=A0=20
Kathi=20
=C2=A0=20
Kathleen Bethell
Assistant Professor=20
Liberal Arts, English=20
Ivy Tech Community College=20
200 Daniels Way=20
Bloomington, IN 47404=20
=C2=A0=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Amy Benjamin
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Membership in ATEG
=C2=A0=20
As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals=C2=A0are stacked and stampled in our=
mailroom (aka=C2=A0my basement)=C2=A0ready to go out to ATEG members. As w=
e now do have a better system of keeping track of, acknowledging, and servi=
cing ATEG members, please consider joining officially.=20
=C2=A0
See www.ateg.org for details, which are, we are happy to report, now accura=
te!
=C2=A0
Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, published twice yearl=
y, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent organization, NCTE. =
We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed to host a session a=
t the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual conference, gathering =
together all of the educators in the English-speaking, non-English-speaking=
, and non-speaking world, and non-world=C2=A0who are interested in the teac=
hing of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can fit easily into one ro=
om.=20
=C2=A0
So keep those cards and letters coming!
Amy Benjamin
ATEG co-president
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV li=
st, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV li=
st, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV li=
st, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/arc=
hives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site a=
t http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"=20
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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--0-785681720-1314463801=:7647
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;"><DIV>For some reason "an historic event" soun=
ds better than "a historic event," but I agree with John that "a historic h=
urricane" sounds less awkward than "an historic hurricane." Perhaps, as Geo=
ff said, when one says: "anistoric event," "an historic" is pronounced as o=
ne word because the word event follows it, and "event" begins with a vowel.=
It is easier to say "A historic hurricane" because both "h's" are pro=
nounced, and "an historic hurricane" sounds too wordy or awkward. (I k=
now none of that probably made any sense).</DIV>
<DIV>Carol<BR><BR>--- On <B>Sat, 8/27/11, John Dews-Alexander <I><jed.al=
[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: John Dews-Alexander <jed.alexander@GMAIL=
.COM><BR>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<BR>To: [log in to unmask]<B=
R>Date: Saturday, August 27, 2011, 12:33 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV id=3Dyiv1409111896>I certainly agree with you when it comes to usage a=
nd the folly of pressing an "error" issue here, but I don't necessarily thi=
nk "an historic hurricane" sounds more grammatical than "a historic hurrica=
ne." I'm going purely off of my instinct as a native speaker of English; pe=
rhaps there is a regional/dialectal aspect concerning the degree to which o=
ne pronounces the "h." <BR><BR>"An historic hurricane" doesn't sound ungram=
matical to me, just odd. I see what you're saying about the eliding that ca=
n take place, but it rings in my ear as something done by people "not from =
around here." <BR><BR>I'll keep my ears open and listen for local usage. Ma=
ybe I'm off base on this.<BR><BR>John<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1409111896gmail_quote>On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Geo=
ffrey Layton <SPAN dir=3Dltr><<A href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymai=
lto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>></SPAN> w=
rote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=
; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3Dyiv1409111896gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Let's not dismiss this one so easily. <BR> <BR>In spite=
of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying "a histor=
ic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic hurricane"? =
Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a historic" sound o=
k (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's right). However, if =
(as I would argue every native speaker does automatically), the sound of th=
e article is naturally elided with the "h," tonally forming one word "anist=
oric," then "an historic hurricane" is the proper choice - both orally and =
in writing. And why would the emphasis be placed on an indefinite arti=
cle anyway? If we were talking about "the historic hurricane," then it make=
s some sense to emphasize "the," separating tonally the two words. <BR>&nbs=
p;<BR>The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a =
grammar problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes
(even if we agree that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage ar=
e worth fighting over? My feeling is that this judgment should be base=
d on meaning - does the "error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an h=
istoric") fails to meet just about any criteria that calls for correction. =
In fact, correcting this "error" may even reach the level of "hyper-co=
rrectness" where being "right" sounds wrong to everybody else except us sch=
oolmarms (and, as mentioned earlier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmar=
m), so that not only does "an historic" not affect the meaning negatively, =
it actually enhances the meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a=
select audience to focus on what is being said rather than how it is being=
said.<BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR> <BR>
<DIV>
<HR>
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700<BR>From: <A href=3D"http://us.mc1121.=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow targe=
t=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</A>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1409111896h5><BR>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<BR>To: <A hr=
ef=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
EDU" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
EDU">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><BR>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD style=3D"font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit" vAlign=3Dtop=
>
<DIV>Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know t=
he answer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "historic".=
I guess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" with a si=
lent "h".</DIV>
<DIV>Carol<BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <I><<A href=3D"http://=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow =
target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&=
gt;</I></B> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Brad Layton <<A href=3D"http://us.mc1121=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D=
_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>Su=
bject: Re: Grammar Question<BR>To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.c=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><B=
R>Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:07 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3Darial><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2=
face=3Darial>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Carol, either is "correct.=
" It simply depends on the idiolect of the individual</FONT> speaking=
... specifically, whether that person pronounces the "h" or does not prono=
unce the "h". I am unaware of any prescriptive case for the superiori=
ty of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph winds, for that matter ;)=
.<BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"CLEAR: both"></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: helvetica, arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"=
>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Carol Morrison <<A href=3D"http://u=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofol=
low target=3D_blank ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">carollynne41@=
YAHOO.COM</A>><BR>To: ATEG <<A href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.co=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank =
ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>>=
;<BR>Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm<BR>Subject: Grammar Question<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<TABLE border=3D0 cellSpacing=3D0 cellPadding=3D0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=3Dtop>
<DIV>A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an=
historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?</DIV>
<DIV>Thanks!</DIV>
<DIV>Carol<BR><BR>--- On <B>Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <I><<A href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" r=
el=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]</A>></I></B> wrote:<B=
R></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Kathleen Bethell <<A href=3D"http://us.m=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow t=
arget=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>Subject: Re: Membership in A=
TEG<BR>To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]
U</A><BR>Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 PM<BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Thank you, Geoff =E2=80=93 Amy already got i=
n touch. ATEG folks are wonderful! </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Kathi</SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">P.S. I don=E2=80=99t know why the cc didn=E2=
=80=99t work; the address is correct.</SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(181,196,223); BORDER-LEFT: rgb(181,196,223=
); PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(181,196,223); PADDING-TOP: 3p=
t">
<DIV><B><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-W=
EIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<A hre=
f=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
DU&" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>=
] <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Geoffrey Lay=
ton<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, August=
26, 2011 10:39 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <=
A href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B>=
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Membership in ATE=
G</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
"> </SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kathi - I=
passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tried to co=
py you on the message and got an undeliverable message for <A href=3D"http:=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofo=
llow target=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]</A>. <BR><BR>Geoff Layton<BR>&nbs=
p;</SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTaho=
ma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=3Dcenter SIZE=3D2 width=3D"100%">
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=
=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400<BR>From: <A href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" r=
el=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]</A><BR>Subject: Re: Memb=
ership in ATEG<BR>To: <A href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>ATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I never received acknowledgement when I join=
ed, so I am not sure if I am even on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I ca=
n check to find out my membership status?</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=
=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTa=
homa><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Kathi</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTah=
oma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTa=
homa><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Kathleen Bethell</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2=
face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Assistant Professor</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=
=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Liberal Arts, English</SPAN></FONT><FONT siz=
e=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Ivy Tech Community College</SPAN></FONT><FON=
T size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </D=
IV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">200 Daniels Way</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 =
face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Bloomington, IN 47404</SPAN></FONT><FONT siz=
e=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#1f497d size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: rg=
b(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTa=
homa><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BORDER-BOTTOM: windowtext; BORDER-LEFT: windowtext; PADDING-B=
OTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1=
pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: windowtext; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<DIV><B><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-W=
EIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<A hre=
f=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
DU&" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>mailto:[log in to unmask]</A>=
] <B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Amy Benjamin=
<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, August =
20, 2011 10:33 AM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A=
href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>[log in to unmask]</A><BR><B><=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Membership in ATEG</SP=
AN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE=
: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals are stacked a=
nd stampled in our mailroom (aka my basement) ready to go out to =
ATEG members. As we now do have a better system of keeping track of, acknow=
ledging, and servicing ATEG members, please consider joining officially. </=
SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></=
SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN st=
yle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">See <A href=3D"http://www.ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow targe=
t=3D_blank>www.ateg.org</A> for details, which are, we are happy to report,=
now accurate!</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FON=
T-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN st=
yle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, pub=
lished twice yearly, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent or=
ganization, NCTE. We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed t=
o host a session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual conf=
erence, gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking, no=
n-English-speaking, and non-speaking world, and non-world who are inte=
rested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can fit =
easily into one room. </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN styl=
e=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN st=
yle=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So keep those cards and letters coming!</SPAN></FONT><FON=
T size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DI=
V></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Amy Benjamin</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><S=
PAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3Dblack size=3D2 face=3DArial><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black;=
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">ATEG co-president</SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTaho=
ma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofol=
low target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> and s=
elect "Join or leave the list" </SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><=
SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow targ=
et=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma>=
<SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To join o=
r leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <A hr=
ef=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofollow target=
=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> and select "Joi=
n or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" =
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofol=
low target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> and s=
elect "Join or leave the list" </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt=
">Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow targ=
et=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A> </SPAN></FONT></DIV>To join or leave this =
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <A href=3D"http://=
listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http=
://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> and select "Join or leave the=
list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow t=
arget=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></=
TABLE>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web inte=
rface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dn=
ofollow target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> a=
nd select "Join or leave the list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow t=
arget=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A> </DIV></DIV></DIV></FONT></FONT>To join=
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <A =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofollow targe=
t=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> and select "Jo=
in or leave the list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow t=
arget=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBO=
DY></TABLE>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web=
interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" re=
l=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<=
/A> and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D=
"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR><=
/DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dyiv1409111896h5>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please vi=
sit the list's web interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/arch=
ives/ateg.html" rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html</A> and select "Join or leave the list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3Dnofollow t=
arget=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><B=
R>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or lea=
ve the list"=20
<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></t=
d></tr></table>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-785681720-1314463801=:7647--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:02:07 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C756396E1EMAILBACKEND0_
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:58:31 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
--_de4660f5-40d8-4558-9e59-47303ea30221_
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Herb - I'd rephrase this - instead of saying it's a matter of whether you p=
rononce the <h> or not=2C I'd suggest that it's a matter of whether you are=
forced to pronounce it. In other words=2C if <a> precedes "historic hurric=
ane=2C" then the =2C<h> in historic must be pronounced=3B if =2C<an> preced=
es=2C then it isn't pronounced and becomes elided. My contention is that th=
is is an issue of usage=2C not grammar. To me (and I'm about as non-regiona=
l as they come=2C although I suppose being totally non-regional is impossib=
le)=2C "a historic" (where both the <a> and the <h> must be pronounced as s=
eparate sounds) appears totally unnatural=2C both to the eye and to the ear=
.
Geoff Layton
Date: Sat=2C 27 Aug 2011 14:02:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]
I don=92t think there=92s any remote or prosodic effect here. It=92s stric=
tly a matter of whether you pronounce the initial <h> or not. I normally s=
ay =93a historic=85=94 with the /h/=2C but I find myself occasionally elidi=
ng the /h/ and using =93an.=94 The pronunciation with both the /n/ and the=
/h/ arises=2C I think=2C from a misunderstanding of the rule. It=92s more=
common in BrE to elide the /h/ than in American English=2C and I suspect t=
hat=92s where the misunderstanding applies. I have heard lots of American =
newsreaders use =93an=94 with the /h/=2C and I think they=92ve been taught =
that prescriptively. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Gramma=
r [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday=2C August 27=2C 2011 12:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Question For some reason "an historic event" sounds be=
tter than "a historic event=2C" but I agree with John that "a historic hurr=
icane" sounds less awkward than "an historic hurricane." Perhaps=2C as Geof=
f said=2C when one says: "anistoric event=2C" "an historic" is pronounced a=
s one word because the word event follows it=2C and "event" begins with a v=
owel. It is easier to say "A historic hurricane" because both "h's" are pro=
nounced=2C and "an historic hurricane" sounds too wordy or awkward. (I know=
none of that probably made any sense).Carol
--- On Sat=2C 8/27/11=2C John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> wrot=
e:
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Saturday=2C August 27=2C 2011=2C 12:33 PMI certainly agree with you w=
hen it comes to usage and the folly of pressing an "error" issue here=2C bu=
t I don't necessarily think "an historic hurricane" sounds more grammatical=
than "a historic hurricane." I'm going purely off of my instinct as a nati=
ve speaker of English=3B perhaps there is a regional/dialectal aspect conce=
rning the degree to which one pronounces the "h."=20
"An historic hurricane" doesn't sound ungrammatical to me=2C just odd. I se=
e what you're saying about the eliding that can take place=2C but it rings =
in my ear as something done by people "not from around here."=20
I'll keep my ears open and listen for local usage. Maybe I'm off base on th=
is.
JohnOn Fri=2C Aug 26=2C 2011 at 10:37 PM=2C Geoffrey Layton <writergwl@hotm=
ail.com> wrote:Let's not dismiss this one so easily.=20
=20
In spite of what Grammar Girl says=2C does anyone honestly find that saying=
"a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic hu=
rricane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a histori=
c" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's right). Ho=
wever=2C if (as I would argue every native speaker does automatically)=2C t=
he sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h=2C" tonally forming=
one word "anistoric=2C" then "an historic hurricane" is the proper choice =
- both orally and in writing. And why would the emphasis be placed on an in=
definite article anyway? If we were talking about "the historic hurricane=
=2C" then it makes some sense to emphasize "the=2C" separating tonally the =
two words.=20
=20
The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a gramma=
r problem at all=2C but one of usage. So the question becomes (even if we a=
gree that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage are worth fighti=
ng over? My feeling is that this judgment should be based on meaning - does=
the "error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to meet =
just about any criteria that calls for correction. In fact=2C correcting th=
is "error" may even reach the level of "hyper-correctness" where being "rig=
ht" sounds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and=2C as mention=
ed earlier=2C it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm)=2C so that not only =
does "an historic" not affect the meaning negatively=2C it actually enhance=
s the meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a select audience to=
focus on what is being said rather than how it is being said.
Geoff Layton
Date: Fri=2C 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask] you=2C Brad=2C M.T.=2C and John for a qui=
ck response! I did not know the answer because I've heard both "a" and "an"=
used in front of "historic". I guess you would only use "an" if you pronou=
nce "historic" with a silent "h".Carol
--- On Fri=2C 8/26/11=2C Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday=2C August 26=2C 2011=2C 8:07 PMCarol=2C either is "correct." =
It simply depends on the idiolect of the individual speaking ... specifical=
ly=2C whether that person pronounces the "h" or does not pronounce the "h".=
I am unaware of any prescriptive case for the superiority of either that =
would hold water ... or 100 mph winds=2C for that matter =3B) . -----Orig=
inal Message-----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri=2C Aug 26=2C 2011 6:41 pm
Subject: Grammar QuestionA friend just asked me which is correct: "a histor=
ic hurricane" or "an historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?Than=
ks!Carol
--- On Fri=2C 8/26/11=2C Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday=2C August 26=2C 2011=2C 12:16 PMThank you=2C Geoff =96 Amy alr=
eady got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful! Kathi P.S. I don=92t know why=
the cc didn=92t work=3B the address is correct. From: Assembly for the T=
eaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of G=
eoffrey Layton
Sent: Friday=2C August 26=2C 2011 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG Kathi - I passed on your question to our p=
resident=2C Amy Benjamin - but I tried to copy you on the message and got a=
n undeliverable message for [log in to unmask]
Geoff Layton
Date: Fri=2C 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
To: [log in to unmask] never received acknowledgement when I joined=
=2C so I am not sure if I am even on the rolls=2C yet. Is there some way I =
can check to find out my membership status? Kathi Kathleen BethellAssist=
ant Professor Liberal Arts=2C English Ivy Tech Community College 200 Daniel=
s Way Bloomington=2C IN 47404 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Amy Benjamin
Sent: Saturday=2C August 20=2C 2011 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Membership in ATEG As you know=2C our hot new ATEG Journals are s=
tacked and stampled in our mailroom (aka my basement) ready to go out to AT=
EG members. As we now do have a better system of keeping track of=2C acknow=
ledging=2C and servicing ATEG members=2C please consider joining officially=
. See www.ateg.org for details=2C which are=2C we are happy to report=2C n=
ow accurate! Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal=2C publis=
hed twice yearly=2C and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent org=
anization=2C NCTE. We maintain this listserv=2C our website=2C and are allo=
wed to host a session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual=
conference=2C gathering together all of the educators in the English-speak=
ing=2C non-English-speaking=2C and non-speaking world=2C and non-world who =
are interested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully=2C all of these peopl=
e can fit easily into one room. So keep those cards and letters coming!Amy=
BenjaminATEG co-presidentTo join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please vis=
it the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=
ml and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg=
.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web in=
terface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join =
or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or lea=
ve this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://l=
istserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" V=
isit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV lis=
t=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/a=
rchives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site=
at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit th=
e list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html an=
d select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interfa=
ce at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or le=
ave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit A=
TEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C pl=
ease visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives=
/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at htt=
p://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interfac=
e at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or lea=
ve the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list=2C please visit the list's web interface at: http://listser=
v.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit A=
TEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_de4660f5-40d8-4558-9e59-47303ea30221_
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Herb -<BR> =3B<BR>I'd rephrase this - instead of saying it's a matter o=
f whether you prononce the <=3Bh>=3B or not=2C I'd suggest that it's a =
matter of whether you are <em>forced</em> to pronounce it. In other words=
=2C if <=3Ba>=3B precedes "historic hurricane=2C" then the =2C<=3Bh&g=
t=3B in historic must be pronounced=3B if =2C<=3Ban>=3B precedes=2C the=
n it isn't pronounced and =3Bbecomes elided. My contention is that this=
is an issue of usage=2C not grammar. To me (and I'm about as non-regional =
as they come=2C although I suppose being totally non-regional is impossible=
)=2C "a historic" (where both the <=3Ba>=3B and the <=3Bh>=3B must =
be pronounced as separate sounds) =3Bappears totally unnatural=2C both =
to the eye and to the ear.<br><br>Geoff Layton<br> =3B<BR><div><hr id=
=3D"stopSpelling">Date: Sat=2C 27 Aug 2011 14:02:07 -0400<br>From: hstahlke=
@BSU.EDU<br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: [log in to unmask]<b=
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</style><div class=3D"ecxWordSection1"><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=
=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>I don=92t think there=92s any remote or prosodic ef=
fect here. =3B It=92s strictly a matter of whether you pronounce the in=
itial <=3Bh>=3B or not. =3B I normally say =93a historic=85=94 with=
the /h/=2C but I find myself occasionally eliding the /h/ and using =93an.=
=94 =3B The pronunciation with both the /n/ and the /h/ arises=2C I thi=
nk=2C from a misunderstanding of the rule.  =3BIt=92s more common in Br=
E to elide the /h/ than in American English=2C and I suspect that=92s where=
the misunderstanding applies. =3B I have heard lots of American newsre=
aders use =93an=94 with the /h/=2C and I think they=92ve been taught that p=
rescriptively.</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rg=
b(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 1=
1pt=3B'> =3B</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: =
rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size:=
11pt=3B'>Herb</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rg=
b(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 1=
1pt=3B'> =3B</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><b><span style=3D'font=
-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>From:</span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'> As=
sembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Carol Morrison<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday=2C August 27=
=2C 2011 12:50 PM<br><b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b>=
Re: Grammar Question</span></p><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"> =3B</p><tabl=
e class=3D"ecxMsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D=
"0"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"padding: 0in=3B" vAlign=3D"top"><div><p class=
=3D"ecxMsoNormal">For some reason "an historic event" sounds better than "a=
historic event=2C" but I agree with John that "a historic hurricane" sound=
s less awkward than "an historic hurricane." Perhaps=2C as Geoff said=2C wh=
en one says: "anistoric event=2C" "an historic" is pronounced as one word b=
ecause the word event follows it=2C and "event" begins with a vowel. It is =
easier to say "A =3Bhistoric hurricane" because both "h's" are pronounc=
ed=2C and "an historic hurricane" sounds too wordy or awkward. =3B(I kn=
ow none of that probably =3Bmade any sense).</p></div><div><p class=3D"=
ecxMsoNormal">Carol<br><br>--- On <b>Sat=2C 8/27/11=2C John Dews-Alexander =
<i><=3B<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</a>>=3B</i></b> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-width: mediu=
m medium medium 1.5pt=3B border-style: none none none solid=3B border-color=
: currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(16=2C 16=2C 255)=3B padding: 0=
in 0in 0in 4pt=3B margin-bottom: 5pt=3B margin-left: 3.75pt=3B"><p style=3D=
"margin-bottom: 12pt=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><br>From: John Dews-Alexand=
er <=3B<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</a>>=3B<br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ATEG@L=
ISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Saturday=2C Augus=
t 27=2C 2011=2C 12:33 PM</p><div id=3D"ecxyiv1409111896"><p style=3D"margin=
-bottom: 12pt=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">I certainly agree with you when it=
comes to usage and the folly of pressing an "error" issue here=2C but I do=
n't necessarily think "an historic hurricane" sounds more grammatical than =
"a historic hurricane." I'm going purely off of my instinct as a native spe=
aker of English=3B perhaps there is a regional/dialectal aspect concerning =
the degree to which one pronounces the "h." <br><br>"An historic hurricane"=
doesn't sound ungrammatical to me=2C just odd. I see what you're saying ab=
out the eliding that can take place=2C but it rings in my ear as something =
done by people "not from around here." <br><br>I'll keep my ears open and l=
isten for local usage. Maybe I'm off base on this.<br><br>John</p><div><p c=
lass=3D"ecxMsoNormal">On Fri=2C Aug 26=2C 2011 at 10:37 PM=2C Geoffrey Layt=
on <=3B<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dwriterg=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>=3B wrote:</p=
><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">Let's not dismiss this one so easily. =
<br> =3B<br>In spite of what Grammar Girl says=2C does anyone honestly =
find that saying "a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than=
"an historic hurricane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article=
does "a historic" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know=
it's right). However=2C if (as I would argue every native speaker does aut=
omatically)=2C the sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h=2C"=
tonally forming one word "anistoric=2C" then "an historic hurricane" is th=
e proper choice - both orally and in writing. And why would the emphasis be=
placed on an indefinite =3Barticle anyway? If we were talking about "t=
he historic hurricane=2C" then it makes some sense to emphasize "the=2C" se=
parating tonally the two words. <br> =3B<br>The next reason to savor th=
is problem a bit more is that it is not a grammar problem at all=2C but one=
of usage. So the question becomes (even if we agree that "a historic" is "=
right") which "errors" of usage are worth fighting over? My feeling is that=
this judgment =3Bshould be based on =3Bmeaning - does the "error" =
affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to meet just about an=
y criteria that calls for correction. In fact=2C correcting this "error" ma=
y even reach the level of =3B"hyper-correctness" where being "right" so=
unds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and=2C as mentioned ear=
lier=2C it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm)=2C so that not only does "=
an historic" not affect the meaning negatively=2C it actually enhances the =
meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a select audience to focus=
on what is being said rather than how it is being said.<br><br>Geoff Layto=
n<br> =3B</p><div><div style=3D"text-align: center=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoN=
ormal" align=3D"center"><hr align=3D"center" SIZE=3D"2" width=3D"100%"></di=
v><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">Date: Fri=2C 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700<br>From=
: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dcarollynne41@Y=
AHOO.COM" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a> </p><div><div><p sty=
le=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><br>Subject: Re: Gramm=
ar Question<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>=
</p><table class=3D"ecxMsoNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellSpacing=3D"0" cellP=
adding=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"padding: 0in=3B font-size-adjust: inhe=
rit=3B font-stretch: inherit=3B" vAlign=3D"top"><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNorm=
al">Thank you=2C Brad=2C M.T.=2C and John for a quick response! I did not k=
now the answer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "histo=
ric". =3BI guess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" wi=
th a silent "h".</p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">Carol<br>--- On <b=
>Fri=2C 8/26/11=2C Brad Layton <i><=3B<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.ya=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
COM</a>>=3B</i></b> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-width: me=
dium medium medium 1.5pt=3B border-style: none none none solid=3B border-co=
lor: currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(16=2C 16=2C 255)=3B padding=
: 0in 0in 0in 4pt=3B margin-bottom: 5pt=3B margin-left: 3.75pt=3B"><p style=
=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><br>From: Brad Layton &l=
t=3B<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dlaytoncab@AO=
L.COM" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>=3B<br>Subject: Re: Gramma=
r Question<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>=
<br>Date: Friday=2C August 26=2C 2011=2C 8:07 PM</p><div><div><p class=3D"e=
cxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-se=
rif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>Carol=2C either is "correct." =3B It simply=
depends on the idiolect of the individual speaking ... specifically=2C whe=
ther that person pronounces the "h" or does not pronounce the "h". =3B =
I am unaware of any prescriptive case for the superiority of either that wo=
uld hold water ... or 100 mph winds=2C for that matter =3B) .</span></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: black=3B font-famil=
y: "Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'> =3B</span></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "=
Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'> =3B</span></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "Aria=
l"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'> =3B</span></p></div><div><p s=
tyle=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color=
: black=3B font-family: "Helvetica"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>-=
----Original Message-----<br>From: Carol Morrison <=3B<a href=3D"http://u=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_=
blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>=3B<br>To: ATEG <=3B<a href=3D"http:/=
[log in to unmask]" target=
=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>=3B<br>Sent: Fri=2C Aug 26=2C 20=
11 6:41 pm<br>Subject: Grammar Question</span></p><div><table class=3D"ecxM=
soNormalTable" border=3D"0" cellSpacing=3D"0" cellPadding=3D"0"><tbody><tr>=
<td style=3D"padding: 0in=3B" vAlign=3D"top"><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"=
>A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an his=
toric hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?</p></div><div><p class=3D"e=
cxMsoNormal">Thanks!</p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">Carol<br><br>-=
-- On <b>Fri=2C 8/26/11=2C Kathleen Bethell <i><=3B<a href=3D"http://us.m=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank=
">[log in to unmask]</a>>=3B</i></b> wrote:</p></div><blockquote style=
=3D"border-width: medium medium medium 1.5pt=3B border-style: none none non=
e solid=3B border-color: currentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(16=2C 1=
6=2C 255)=3B padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt=3B margin-bottom: 5pt=3B margin-left:=
3.75pt=3B"><p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt=3B" class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><br>=
From: Kathleen Bethell <=3B<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</=
a>>=3B<br>Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_bla=
nk">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday=2C August 26=2C 2011=2C 12=
:16 PM</p><div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rg=
b(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 1=
1pt=3B'>Thank you=2C Geoff =96 Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are won=
derful! </span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=
=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B=
font-size: 11pt=3B'> =3B</span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMso=
Normal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri=
"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>Kathi</span> </p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-famil=
y: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>P.S. I don=92t know why =
the cc didn=92t work=3B the address is correct.</span> </p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-fam=
ily: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'> =3B</span> </p></=
div><div><div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium=3B border-style: sol=
id none none=3B border-color: rgb(181=2C 196=2C 223) currentColor currentCo=
lor=3B padding: 3pt 0in 0in=3B"><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><b><span sty=
le=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>From:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10=
pt=3B'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a href=3D"http://us.=
[log in to unmask]&=3B" targ=
et=3D"_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Geof=
frey Layton<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday=2C August 26=2C 2011 10:39 AM<br><b>To:<=
/b> <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DATEG@LISTSER=
V.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Subject:=
</b> Re: Membership in ATEG</span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3D"ec=
xMsoNormal"> =3B </p></div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>Kathi - =
I passed on your question to our president=2C Amy Benjamin - but I tried to=
copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for <a href=3D"ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]" target=
=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>. <br><br>Geoff Layton<br> =3B</spa=
n></p></div></div><div><div style=3D"text-align: center=3B" class=3D"ecxMso=
Normal" align=3D"center"><span style=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif=
"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'><hr align=3D"center" SIZE=3D"2" width=3D"100%"></s=
pan></div><div style=3D"margin-bottom: 12pt=3B"><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><=
span style=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>D=
ate: Fri=2C 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">kbe=
[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"=
[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" t=
arget=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a></span></p></div></div><div><d=
iv><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B =
font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>I never receiv=
ed acknowledgement when I joined=2C so I am not sure if I am even on the ro=
lls=2C yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my membership status?=
</span></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color:=
rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size=
: 11pt=3B'> =3B</span> </p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span s=
tyle=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif=
"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>Kathi</span> </p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNorm=
al"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C=
"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'> =3B</span> </p></div><div><div><p =
class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-f=
amily: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>Kathleen Bethell</sp=
an></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb=
(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11=
pt=3B'>Assistant Professor</span> </p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal">=
<span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"san=
s-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>Liberal Arts=2C English</span> </p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B =
font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>Ivy Tech Commu=
nity College</span> </p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D=
'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B fo=
nt-size: 11pt=3B'>200 Daniels Way</span> </p></div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 125)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=
=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'>Bloomington=2C IN 47404</span> </p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: rgb(31=2C 73=2C 1=
25)=3B font-family: "Calibri"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 11pt=3B'> =
=3B</span> </p></div><div><div style=3D"border-width: 1pt medium medium=3B =
border-style: solid none none=3B border-color: windowtext currentColor curr=
entColor=3B padding: 3pt 0in 0in=3B"><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><b><spa=
n style=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>From=
:</span></b><span style=3D'font-family: "Tahoma"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-siz=
e: 10pt=3B'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a href=3D"http:=
[log in to unmask]&=3B"=
target=3D"_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b=
>Amy Benjamin<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday=2C August 20=2C 2011 10:33 AM<br><b>=
To:</b> <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DATEG@LIS=
TSERV.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b> Membership in ATEG</span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3D"ec=
xMsoNormal"> =3B </p></div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10=
pt=3B'>As you know=2C our hot new ATEG Journals =3Bare stacked and stam=
pled in our mailroom (aka =3Bmy basement) =3Bready to go out to ATE=
G members. As we now do have a better system of keeping track of=2C acknowl=
edging=2C and servicing ATEG members=2C please consider joining officially.=
</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'=
color: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'>=
 =3B</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10=
pt=3B'>See <a href=3D"http://www.ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">www.ateg.org<=
/a> for details=2C which are=2C we are happy to report=2C now accurate!</sp=
an></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color=
: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'> =
=3B</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=
=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=
=3B'>Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal=2C published twic=
e yearly=2C and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent organizatio=
n=2C NCTE. We maintain this listserv=2C our website=2C and are allowed to h=
ost a session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual confere=
nce=2C gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking=2C n=
on-English-speaking=2C and non-speaking world=2C and non-world =3Bwho a=
re interested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully=2C all of these people=
can fit easily into one room. </span></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D=
"ecxMsoNormal"><span style=3D'color: black=3B font-family: "Arial"=2C"sans-=
serif"=3B font-size: 10pt=3B'> =3B</span></p></div></div><div><div><p c=
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--_de4660f5-40d8-4558-9e59-47303ea30221_--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 17:52:03 -0400
From: "Peter H. Fries" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
--000e0cd522621f96db04ab83acf7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Have I missed some mention of accent here? It seems to me that the placemen=
t
of word accent influences whether =91h=92 is optional or not. (or more prop=
erly,
the probability of its appearance.) I certainly alternate in my
pronunciation of =91historic=92 either pronouncing or not pronouncing the
initial =91h=92. However I am much less likely to omit the initial =91h=92 =
in
=91history=92, where the initial syllable is accented. The elision of init=
ial
=91h=92 is quite common in words such as =91him=92 and =91his=92, which are=
regularly
unaccented. But compare the pronunciations of =91him=92 in =91*give* it to=
him=92
vs. =91give it to *him*=92. (Asterisks indicate sentence stress.) I am much=
more
likely to omit the initial =91h=92 in the first version than I am in the se=
cond.
For those members of the list who are less familiar with English dialects,
the pronunciation of initial =91h=92 (both omission of =91h=92 and insertio=
n of =91h=92
where it =91doesn=92t belong=92) is a feature that distinguishes many diale=
cts,
particularly British dialects. (Of course, talking about places where sound=
s
are =91omitted=92 or where they =91don=92t belong=92 is only possible if on=
e chooses
the proper dialect as a reference point. So far as the speakers of the =93=
=91h=92
insertion=94 dialects are concerned, the =91h=92 belongs there, it=92s all=
the
other speakers who omit it.)
You may enjoy an old story from my family that turns on this difference in
pronunciation of initial =91h=92.
Many years ago (I suspect that it occurred in 1928 or 1929), when my parent=
s
were in England, they visited William Craigie (editor of the OED) and his
wife, and at the end of the evening meal a considerable amount of one of
the dishes had been left over, so Mrs. Craigie told the housekeeper that sh=
e
should keep it over night and =91heat it up for breakfast=92. The next morn=
ing,
when the dish didn=92t appear, Mrs. Craigie asked after the dish, and the
answer came back =93Oh, You said I could heat it up for breakfast, so I het=
it
up.=94
Peter
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>wr=
ote:
> Let's not dismiss this one so easily.
>
> In spite of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying
> "a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic
> hurricane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a
> historic" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's
> right). However, if (as I would argue every native speaker does
> automatically), the sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h,=
"
> tonally forming one word "anistoric," then "an historic hurricane" is the
> proper choice - both orally and in writing. And why would the emphasis be
> placed on an indefinite article anyway? If we were talking about "the
> historic hurricane," then it makes some sense to emphasize "the," separat=
ing
> tonally the two words.
>
> The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a
> grammar problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even i=
f
> we agree that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage are worth
> fighting over? My feeling is that this judgment should be based on meanin=
g -
> does the "error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to
> meet just about any criteria that calls for correction. In fact, correcti=
ng
> this "error" may even reach the level of "hyper-correctness" where being
> "right" sounds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and, as
> mentioned earlier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm), so that not
> only does "an historic" not affect the meaning negatively, it actually
> enhances the meaning if it enhances the ability of all of but a select
> audience to focus on what is being said rather than how it is being said.
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know the
> answer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "historic". =
I
> guess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" with a silent "=
h".
> Carol
> --- On *Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]>* wrote:
>
>
> From: Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Grammar Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:07 PM
>
> Carol, either is "correct." It simply depends on the idiolect of the
> individual speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the
> "h" or does not pronounce the "h". I am unaware of any prescriptive case
> for the superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph winds,
> for that matter ;) .
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
> To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm
> Subject: Grammar Question
>
> A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an
> historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?
> Thanks!
> Carol
>
> --- On *Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc=
[log in to unmask]>
> >* wrote:
>
>
> From: Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.=
[log in to unmask]>
> >
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 PM
>
> Thank you, Geoff =96 Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful!
>
> Kathi
> P.S. I don=92t know why the cc didn=92t work; the address is correct.
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> mailto:[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
[log in to unmask]&>]
> *On Behalf Of *Geoffrey Layton
> *Sent:* Friday, August 26, 2011 10:39 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: Membership in ATEG
>
> Kathi - I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I
> tried to copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for
> [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkbet=
[log in to unmask]>.
>
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
> To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?t=
[log in to unmask]>
> I never received acknowledgement when I joined, so I am not sure if I am
> even on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my
> membership status?
>
> Kathi
>
> Kathleen Bethell
> Assistant Professor
> Liberal Arts, English
> Ivy Tech Community College
> 200 Daniels Way
> Bloomington, IN 47404
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> mailto:[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compos=
[log in to unmask]&>]
> *On Behalf Of *Amy Benjamin
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:33 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose=
[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Membership in ATEG
>
> As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals are stacked and stampled in our
> mailroom (aka my basement) ready to go out to ATEG members. As we now do
> have a better system of keeping track of, acknowledging, and servicing AT=
EG
> members, please consider joining officially.
>
> See www.ateg.org for details, which are, we are happy to report, now
> accurate!
>
> Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, published twice
> yearly, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent organization,
> NCTE. We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed to host a
> session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual conference,
> gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking,
> non-English-speaking, and non-speaking world, and non-world who are
> interested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people ca=
n
> fit easily into one room.
>
> So keep those cards and letters coming!
> Amy Benjamin
> ATEG co-president
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
e
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>
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>
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
--=20
Peter H. Fries
Box 310
Mount Pleasant MI 48804
Phone: 989-644-3384
Cell: 989-400-3764
Email: [log in to unmask]
Web page: <http://cmich.edu/chsbs/x23516.xml<http://cmich.edu/chsbs/x23516=
.xml>>
[among 'emeritus faculty']
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Have I missed some mention of accent here? It seems =
to me
that the placement of word accent influences whether =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 is=
optional or not. (or more properly, the probability of its appearance.) I
certainly alternate in my pronunciation of =E2=80=98historic=E2=80=99 eithe=
r pronouncing or not
pronouncing the initial =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99. However I am much less likely =
to omit the initial
=E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=98history=E2=80=99, where the initial syllabl=
e is accented.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>The elision of=
initial =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 is quite common in
words such as =E2=80=98him=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98his=E2=80=99, which are re=
gularly unaccented.<span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>But compa=
re the pronunciations of =E2=80=98him=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=98*give*
it to him=E2=80=99 vs. =E2=80=98give it to *him*=E2=80=99. (Asterisks indic=
ate sentence stress.) I am
much more likely to omit the initial =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in the first versi=
on than I am in the
second. <span style=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For those members of the list who are less familiar =
with
English dialects, the pronunciation of initial =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 (both om=
ission of =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 and
insertion of =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 where it =E2=80=98doesn=E2=80=99t belong=
=E2=80=99) is a feature that distinguishes
many dialects, particularly British dialects. (Of course, talking about pla=
ces
where sounds are =E2=80=98omitted=E2=80=99 or where they =E2=80=98don=E2=80=
=99t belong=E2=80=99 is only possible if one
chooses the proper dialect as a reference point. So far as the speakers of =
the
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 insertion=E2=80=9D <span style=3D"mso-spacerun=
:yes">=C2=A0</span>dialects are concerned,
the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 belongs there, it=E2=80=99s all the other speakers =
who omit it.) </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You may enjoy an old story from my family that turns=
on this
difference in pronunciation of initial =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99. </p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Many years ago (I suspect that it occurred in 1928 o=
r 1929),
when my parents were in England, they visited William Craigie (editor of th=
e
OED) and his wife, and at the end of the evening meal<span style=3D"mso-spa=
cerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span>a considerable amount of one of the dishes
had been left over, so Mrs. Craigie told the housekeeper that she should ke=
ep
it over night and =E2=80=98heat it up for breakfast=E2=80=99. The next morn=
ing, when the dish
didn=E2=80=99t appear, Mrs. Craigie asked after the dish, and the answer ca=
me back =E2=80=9COh,
You said I could heat it up for breakfast, so I het it up.=E2=80=9D<span st=
yle=3D"mso-spacerun:yes">=C2=A0 </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Peter</p>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 11:37 PM, Geoffr=
ey Layton <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">wr=
[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;=
">
<div><div dir=3D"ltr">
Let's not dismiss this one so easily. <br>=C2=A0<br>In spite of what Gr=
ammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying "a historic hur=
ricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic hurrican=
e"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a his=
toric" sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it'=
;s right). However, if (as I would argue every native speaker does automati=
cally), the sound of the article is naturally elided with the "h,"=
; tonally forming one word "anistoric," then "an historic hu=
rricane" is the proper choice - both orally and in writing. And why wo=
uld the emphasis be placed on an indefinite=C2=A0article anyway? If we were=
talking about "the historic hurricane," then it makes some sense=
to emphasize "the," separating tonally the two words. <br>
=C2=A0<br>The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is no=
t a grammar problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even=
if we agree that "a historic" is "right") which "=
errors" of usage are worth fighting over? My feeling is that this judg=
ment=C2=A0should be based on=C2=A0meaning - does the "error" affe=
ct the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to meet just ab=
out any criteria that calls for correction. In fact, correcting this "=
error" may even reach the level of=C2=A0"hyper-correctness" =
where being "right" sounds wrong to everybody else except us scho=
olmarms (and, as mentioned earlier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm=
), so that not only does "an historic" not affect the meaning neg=
atively, it actually enhances the meaning if it enhances the ability of all=
of but a select audience to focus on what is being said rather than how it=
is being said.<br>
<br>Geoff Layton<br>=C2=A0<br><div><hr>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -070=
0<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">caro=
[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <a href=3D"m=
ailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]<=
/a><br>
<br><table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td =
style=3D"font:inherit;font-size-adjust:inherit;font-stretch:inherit" valign=
=3D"top"><div>Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did n=
ot know the answer because I've heard both "a" and "an&q=
uot; used in front of "historic".=C2=A0I guess you would only use=
"an" if you pronounce "historic" with a silent "h=
".</div>
<div>Carol<br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <i><<a href=3D"mailto:=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> wrot=
e:<br></div>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb=
(16, 16, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid"><br>From: Brad=
Layton <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">laytonca=
[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, Augus=
t 26, 2011, 8:07 PM<br><br>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"arial" size=3D"2"><font color=3D"black" =
face=3D"arial" size=3D"2">
<div><font face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Carol, either is "cor=
rect."=C2=A0 It simply depends on the idiolect of the individual</font=
> speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the "h&quo=
t; or does not pronounce the "h".=C2=A0 I am unaware of any presc=
riptive case for the superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100=
mph winds, for that matter ;) .<br>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"clear:both"></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"color:black;font-family:helvetica, arial;font-size:10pt">----=
-Original Message-----<br>From: Carol Morrison <<a href=3D"mailto:caroll=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To: A=
TEG <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@=
LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a>><br>
Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm<br>Subject: Grammar Question<br><br>
<div>
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td valign=3D"top">
<div>A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane&qu=
ot; or "an historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?</di=
v>
<div>Thanks!</div>
<div>Carol<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <i><<a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" r=
el=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> wrot=
e:<br>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"padding-left:5px;margin-left:5px;border-left-color:rgb=
(16, 16, 255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid"><br>From: Kath=
leen Bethell <<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">kbethell@IVYTEC=
H.EDU</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yah=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D=
"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:=
16 PM<br>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Thank you, Geoff =E2=80=93 Amy already =
got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful! </span></font></div></div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</span></font></div></div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Kathi</span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">P.S. I don=E2=80=99t know why the cc di=
dn=E2=80=99t work; the address is correct.</span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</span></font> </div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:rgb(181, 196, 223);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span=
style=3D"font-size:10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a=
href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU&" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Geoff=
rey Layton<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Friday, August 26, 201=
1 10:39 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=3D=
"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]" =
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: Membership in
ATEG</span></font></div></div></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=C2=A0</span></font> </div>
<div>
<div><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Kathi =
- I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tried to=
copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for <a href=3D"ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"=
nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>. <br>
<br>Geoff Layton<br>=C2=A0</span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center"><font face=3D"Tahoma" siz=
e=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">
<hr align=3D"center" size=3D"2" width=3D"100%">
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:10pt">Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400<br>From: <a hr=
ef=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]"=
rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yah=
[log in to unmask]" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D=
"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">I never received acknowledgement when I=
joined, so I am not sure if I am even on the rolls, yet. Is there some way=
I can check to find out my membership status?</span></font><font face=3D"T=
ahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahom=
a" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Kathi</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahom=
a" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Kathleen Bethell</span></font><font fac=
e=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>=
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Assistant Professor</span></font><font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </=
div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Liberal Arts, English</span></font><fon=
t face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> =
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Ivy Tech Community College</span></font=
><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></f=
ont> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">200 Daniels Way</span></font><font face=
=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">Bloomington, IN 47404</span></font><fon=
t face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> =
</div>
<div><font color=3D"#1f497d" face=3D"Calibri" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"col=
or:rgb(31, 73, 125);font-size:11pt">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahom=
a" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-width:1pt medium medium;border-style:solid none none;b=
order-color:windowtext;padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<div><b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font=
-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span=
style=3D"font-size:10pt"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a=
href=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU&" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU</a>] <b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Amy B=
enjamin<br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Saturday, August 20, 2=
011 10:33 AM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> <a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
U" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
<b><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Membership in
ATEG</span></font></div></div></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font=
-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals=C2=A0are stacke=
d and stampled in our mailroom (aka=C2=A0my basement)=C2=A0ready to go out =
to ATEG members. As we now do have a better system of keeping track of, ack=
nowledging, and servicing ATEG members, please consider joining officially.=
</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">See <a href=3D"http://www.ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofollow" =
target=3D"_blank">www.ateg.org</a> for details, which are, we are happy to =
report, now accurate!</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, =
published twice yearly, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent=
organization, NCTE. We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowe=
d to host a session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual c=
onference, gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking,=
non-English-speaking, and non-speaking world, and non-world=C2=A0who are i=
nterested in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can f=
it easily into one room. </span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
</div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">=C2=A0</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">So keep those cards and letters coming!</span></font><=
font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></fon=
t></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">Amy Benjamin</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=
=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div>
<div><font color=3D"black" face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"color:b=
lack;font-size:10pt">ATEG co-president</span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" s=
ize=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int=
erface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3D=
"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<=
/a> and select "Join or leave the list" </span></font><font face=
=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofollo=
w" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a></span></font><font face=3D"Tahoma=
" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt"></span></font> </div>
<div><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">To joi=
n or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at=
: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3D"nofollow=
" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and s=
elect "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <a hr=
ef=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/=
</a></span></font> </div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int=
erface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3D=
"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<=
/a> and select "Join or leave the list" </span></font></div>
<div><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span style=3D"font-size:12p=
t">Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofollo=
w" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> </span></font></div>To join or le=
ave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a hr=
ef=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" rel=3D"nofollow" targe=
t=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select &=
quot;Join or leave the list"=20
<div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> </div></blockquote></td></tr></=
tbody></table>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list=
9;s web interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.h=
tml" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives=
/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"=20
<div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" rel=3D"nofol=
low" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> </div></div></div></font></font=
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web inter=
face at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select &q=
uot;Join or leave the list"=20
<div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://ateg.org/</a></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></tabl=
e>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a><br></div>
</div></div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
ace at:
<a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a>
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a>
</p></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Peter H. Fries<br><=
br>Box 310 <br>Mount Pleasant MI 48804<br><br>Phone:=C2=A0 989-644-3384<br>=
Cell:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 989-400-3764 <br><br>Email:=C2=A0 <a href=3D"mail=
to:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <br>Web page:=C2=A0 <span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height:110%;color:rgb(31, 73, 125)"></span><a href=
=3D"http://cmich.edu/chsbs/x23516.xml" target=3D"_blank"><http://cmich.e=
du/chsbs/x23516.xml</a>>=C2=A0 <span style=3D"font-size:11pt;line-height=
:110%;font-family:"Times New Roman"">[among 'emeritus faculty=
']</span>
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 <br><br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
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--000e0cd522621f96db04ab83acf7--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 23:54:47 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C756396E5EMAILBACKEND0_
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Geoff,
Speaking phonetically, what happens in "a historical" is that the /h/, rath=
er like the /h/ in "ahead," actually gets voiced and we get a moment of wha=
t phoneticians and the IPA call "murmur" or "breathy voicing." The <a> is =
pronounced as a schwa. Since we don't, unlike Hindi, have breathy voiced c=
onsonants in English, we don't recognize this bit of breathy voicing as suc=
h and assume either that there's no /h/ pronounced or that it's pronounced =
in its fully voiceless form. By the way, if you consider your speech to be=
non-regional, I'll hazard a guess that you're a Northern Midlands speaker.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 3:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
Herb -
I'd rephrase this - instead of saying it's a matter of whether you prononce=
the <h> or not, I'd suggest that it's a matter of whether you are forced t=
o pronounce it. In other words, if <a> precedes "historic hurricane," then =
the ,<h> in historic must be pronounced; if ,<an> precedes, then it isn't p=
ronounced and becomes elided. My contention is that this is an issue of usa=
ge, not grammar. To me (and I'm about as non-regional as they come, althoug=
h I suppose being totally non-regional is impossible), "a historic" (where =
both the <a> and the <h> must be pronounced as separate sounds) appears tot=
ally unnatural, both to the eye and to the ear.
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:02:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
I don't think there's any remote or prosodic effect here. It's strictly a =
matter of whether you pronounce the initial <h> or not. I normally say "a =
historic..." with the /h/, but I find myself occasionally eliding the /h/ a=
nd using "an." The pronunciation with both the /n/ and the /h/ arises, I t=
hink, from a misunderstanding of the rule. It's more common in BrE to elid=
e the /h/ than in American English, and I suspect that's where the misunder=
standing applies. I have heard lots of American newsreaders use "an" with =
the /h/, and I think they've been taught that prescriptively.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Carol Morrison
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
For some reason "an historic event" sounds better than "a historic event," =
but I agree with John that "a historic hurricane" sounds less awkward than =
"an historic hurricane." Perhaps, as Geoff said, when one says: "anistoric =
event," "an historic" is pronounced as one word because the word event foll=
ows it, and "event" begins with a vowel. It is easier to say "A historic hu=
rricane" because both "h's" are pronounced, and "an historic hurricane" sou=
nds too wordy or awkward. (I know none of that probably made any sense).
Carol
--- On Sat, 8/27/11, John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]<mailto:je=
[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]<mailto:jed.alexander@GMA=
IL.COM>>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Date: Saturday, August 27, 2011, 12:33 PM
I certainly agree with you when it comes to usage and the folly of pressing=
an "error" issue here, but I don't necessarily think "an historic hurrican=
e" sounds more grammatical than "a historic hurricane." I'm going purely of=
f of my instinct as a native speaker of English; perhaps there is a regiona=
l/dialectal aspect concerning the degree to which one pronounces the "h."
"An historic hurricane" doesn't sound ungrammatical to me, just odd. I see =
what you're saying about the eliding that can take place, but it rings in m=
y ear as something done by people "not from around here."
I'll keep my ears open and listen for local usage. Maybe I'm off base on th=
is.
John
On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]<ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]>> wrote=
:
Let's not dismiss this one so easily.
In spite of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find that saying "=
a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better than "an historic hurr=
icane"? Only if the emphasis is on the indefinite article does "a historic"=
sound ok (it still sounds wrong to me even though I know it's right). Howe=
ver, if (as I would argue every native speaker does automatically), the sou=
nd of the article is naturally elided with the "h," tonally forming one wor=
d "anistoric," then "an historic hurricane" is the proper choice - both ora=
lly and in writing. And why would the emphasis be placed on an indefinite a=
rticle anyway? If we were talking about "the historic hurricane," then it m=
akes some sense to emphasize "the," separating tonally the two words.
The next reason to savor this problem a bit more is that it is not a gramma=
r problem at all, but one of usage. So the question becomes (even if we agr=
ee that "a historic" is "right") which "errors" of usage are worth fighting=
over? My feeling is that this judgment should be based on meaning - does t=
he "error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") fails to meet ju=
st about any criteria that calls for correction. In fact, correcting this "=
error" may even reach the level of "hyper-correctness" where being "right" =
sounds wrong to everybody else except us schoolmarms (and, as mentioned ear=
lier, it even sounds wrong to this schoolmarm), so that not only does "an h=
istoric" not affect the meaning negatively, it actually enhances the meanin=
g if it enhances the ability of all of but a select audience to focus on wh=
at is being said rather than how it is being said.
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John for a quick response! I did not know the an=
swer because I've heard both "a" and "an" used in front of "historic". I gu=
ess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic" with a silent "h".
Carol
--- On Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.y=
[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
From: Brad Layton <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/com=
[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: Grammar Question
To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 8:07 PM
Carol, either is "correct." It simply depends on the idiolect of the indiv=
idual speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the "h" or =
does not pronounce the "h". I am unaware of any prescriptive case for the =
superiority of either that would hold water ... or 100 mph winds, for that =
matter ;) .
-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.co=
[log in to unmask]>>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm
Subject: Grammar Question
A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurricane" or "an hist=
oric hurricane"? Can someone help me out here?
Thanks!
Carol
--- On Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc112=
[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
From: Kathleen Bethell <[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.co=
[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 PM
Thank you, Geoff - Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful!
Kathi
P.S. I don't know why the cc didn't work; the address is correct.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU&>] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 10:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
Kathi - I passed on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tr=
ied to copy you on the message and got an undeliverable message for kbethel=
[log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkbethell@IVYT=
ECH.EDU>.
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG
To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
I never received acknowledgement when I joined, so I am not sure if I am ev=
en on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my membersh=
ip status?
Kathi
Kathleen Bethell
Assistant Professor
Liberal Arts, English
Ivy Tech Community College
200 Daniels Way
Bloomington, IN 47404
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU<[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU&>] On Behalf Of Amy Benjamin
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Membership in ATEG
As you know, our hot new ATEG Journals are stacked and stampled in our mail=
room (aka my basement) ready to go out to ATEG members. As we now do have a=
better system of keeping track of, acknowledging, and servicing ATEG membe=
rs, please consider joining officially.
See www.ateg.org<http://www.ateg.org/> for details, which are, we are happy=
to report, now accurate!
Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, published twice yearl=
y, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent organization, NCTE. =
We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed to host a session a=
t the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual conference, gathering =
together all of the educators in the English-speaking, non-English-speaking=
, and non-speaking world, and non-world who are interested in the teaching =
of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can fit easily into one room.
So keep those cards and letters coming!
Amy Benjamin
ATEG co-president
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Geoff, <o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p=
><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri"=
,"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Speaking phonetically, what happens in “=
a historical” is that the /h/, rather like the /h/ in “ahead,&#=
8221; actually gets voiced and we get a moment of what phoneticians and the=
IPA call “murmur” or “breathy voicing.” The =
<a> is pronounced as a schwa. Since we don’t, unlike Hind=
i, have breathy voiced consonants in English, we don’t recognize this=
bit of breathy voicing as such and assume either that there’s no /h/=
pronounced or that it’s pronounced in its fully voiceless form. =
; By the way, if you consider your speech to be non-regional, I’ll ha=
zard a guess that you’re a Northern Midlands speaker.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cal=
ibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p=
> </o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5=
C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><sp=
an style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly f=
or the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Geoffrey Layton<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 27, 2011 3:5=
9 PM<br><b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar =
Question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> <=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Herb -<br> <br>I'd rephrase this - instead =
of saying it's a matter of whether you prononce the <h> or not, I'd s=
uggest that it's a matter of whether you are <em><span style=3D'font-family=
:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>forced</span></em> to pronounce it. In other words,=
if <a> precedes "historic hurricane," then the ,<h> =
in historic must be pronounced; if ,<an> precedes, then it isn't pron=
ounced and becomes elided. My contention is that this is an issue of u=
sage, not grammar. To me (and I'm about as non-regional as they come, altho=
ugh I suppose being totally non-regional is impossible), "a historic&q=
uot; (where both the <a> and the <h> must be pronounced as sepa=
rate sounds) appears totally unnatural, both to the eye and to the ear=
.<br><br>Geoff Layton<br> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><div class=3DMsoN=
ormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><span style=3D'font-size:1=
0.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=
=3Dcenter id=3DstopSpelling></span></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'marg=
in-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","san=
s-serif"'>Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 14:02:07 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>=
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:1=
1.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I don’t think=
there’s any remote or prosodic effect here. It’s strictl=
y a matter of whether you pronounce the initial <h> or not. I n=
ormally say “a historic…” with the /h/, but I find myself=
occasionally eliding the /h/ and using “an.” The pronunc=
iation with both the /n/ and the /h/ arises, I think, from a misunderstandi=
ng of the rule. It’s more common in BrE to elide the /h/ than i=
n American English, and I suspect that’s where the misunderstanding a=
pplies. I have heard lots of American newsreaders use “an”=
; with the /h/, and I think they’ve been taught that prescriptively.<=
/span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o=
:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Herb</span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F=
497D'> </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sa=
ns-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the =
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Carol Morrison<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 27, 2011 12:50 PM<br=
><b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar Questio=
n<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><table clas=
s=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valig=
n=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>For som=
e reason "an historic event" sounds better than "a historic =
event," but I agree with John that "a historic hurricane" so=
unds less awkward than "an historic hurricane." Perhaps, as Geoff=
said, when one says: "anistoric event," "an historic" =
is pronounced as one word because the word event follows it, and "even=
t" begins with a vowel. It is easier to say "A historic hurr=
icane" because both "h's" are pronounced, and "an histo=
ric hurricane" sounds too wordy or awkward. (I know none of that =
probably made any sense).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>Carol<br><br>--- On <b>Sat, 8/27/11, John Dews-Alexander <i><<a href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b>=
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:so=
lid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-to=
p:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentColor currentColor currentC=
olor rgb(16, 16, 255)'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>=
<br>From: John Dews-Alexander <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <=
a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
Date: Saturday, August 27, 2011, 12:33 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div id=3Decxyiv140=
9111896><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>I certainly agr=
ee with you when it comes to usage and the folly of pressing an "error=
" issue here, but I don't necessarily think "an historic hurrican=
e" sounds more grammatical than "a historic hurricane." I'm =
going purely off of my instinct as a native speaker of English; perhaps the=
re is a regional/dialectal aspect concerning the degree to which one pronou=
nces the "h." <br><br>"An historic hurricane" doesn't s=
ound ungrammatical to me, just odd. I see what you're saying about the elid=
ing that can take place, but it rings in my ear as something done by people=
"not from around here." <br><br>I'll keep my ears open and liste=
n for local usage. Maybe I'm off base on this.<br><br>John<o:p></o:p></p><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Geoffrey Layton &=
lt;<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dwritergwl@hot=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p>=
</p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Let's not dismiss this one so easily. <b=
r> <br>In spite of what Grammar Girl says, does anyone honestly find t=
hat saying "a historic hurricane" out loud actually sound better =
than "an historic hurricane"? Only if the emphasis is on the inde=
finite article does "a historic" sound ok (it still sounds wrong =
to me even though I know it's right). However, if (as I would argue every n=
ative speaker does automatically), the sound of the article is naturally el=
ided with the "h," tonally forming one word "anistoric,"=
; then "an historic hurricane" is the proper choice - both orally=
and in writing. And why would the emphasis be placed on an indefinite =
;article anyway? If we were talking about "the historic hurricane,&quo=
t; then it makes some sense to emphasize "the," separating tonall=
y the two words. <br> <br>The next reason to savor this problem a bit =
more is that it is not a grammar problem at all, but one of usage. So the q=
uestion becomes (even if we agree that "a historic" is "righ=
t") which "errors" of usage are worth fighting over? My feel=
ing is that this judgment should be based on meaning - does the &=
quot;error" affect the meaning? So this one ("an historic") =
fails to meet just about any criteria that calls for correction. In fact, c=
orrecting this "error" may even reach the level of "hyp=
er-correctness" where being "right" sounds wrong to everybod=
y else except us schoolmarms (and, as mentioned earlier, it even sounds wro=
ng to this schoolmarm), so that not only does "an historic" not a=
ffect the meaning negatively, it actually enhances the meaning if it enhanc=
es the ability of all of but a select audience to focus on what is being sa=
id rather than how it is being said.<br><br>Geoff Layton<br> <o:p></o:=
p></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center=
'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dat=
e: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 17:21:38 -0700<br>From: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mai=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">carol=
[log in to unmask]</a> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
U" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><o:p></o:p></p><table clas=
s=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valig=
n=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in;font-size-adjust: inherit;font-str=
etch: inherit'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you, Brad, M.T., and John fo=
r a quick response! I did not know the answer because I've heard both "=
;a" and "an" used in front of "historic". I g=
uess you would only use "an" if you pronounce "historic"=
; with a silent "h".<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>Carol<br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/26/11, Brad Layton <i><<a href=3D"http://us.=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">=
[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote st=
yle=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4=
.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:c=
urrentColor currentColor currentColor rgb(16, 16, 255)'><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Brad Layton <<a href=3D"http:=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Re: Grammar Question<br>To: <a h=
ref=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, Augus=
t 26, 2011, 8:07 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Carol, =
either is "correct." It simply depends on the idiolect of t=
he individual speaking ... specifically, whether that person pronounces the=
"h" or does not pronounce the "h". I am unaware =
of any prescriptive case for the superiority of either that would hold wate=
r ... or 100 mph winds, for that matter ;) .</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",=
"sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-seri=
f";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:bla=
ck'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'ma=
rgin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica"=
,"sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Carol Morris=
on <<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dcarollynn=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To: ATEG=
<<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3DATEG@LISTSE=
RV.MUOHIO.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Sent: =
Fri, Aug 26, 2011 6:41 pm<br>Subject: Grammar Question</span><o:p></o:p></p=
><div><table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=
=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>A friend just asked me which is correct: "a historic hurr=
icane" or "an historic hurricane"? Can someone help me out h=
ere?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Carol<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 8/26/11, Kathleen=
Bethell <i><<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3D=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b=
> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:s=
olid windowtext 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-t=
op:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;border-color:currentColor currentColor current=
Color rgb(16, 16, 255)'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'=
><br>From: Kathleen Bethell <<a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]
U</a>><br>Subject: Re: Membership in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_bl=
ank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, August 26, 2011, 12:16 P=
M<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thank you, Geoff=
– Amy already got in touch. ATEG folks are wonderful! </span><o:p></=
o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:=
p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kathi</span> <o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>P.S. I don’t know why the =
cc didn’t work; the address is correct.</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calib=
ri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><di=
v style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:<=
/span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"=
'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a href=3D"http://us.mc112=
[log in to unmask]&" target=3D"_=
blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Geoffrey La=
yton<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 26, 2011 10:39 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
U" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Me=
mbership in ATEG</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Kathi - I passed =
on your question to our president, Amy Benjamin - but I tried to copy you o=
n the message and got an undeliverable message for <a href=3D"http://us.mc1=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">=
[log in to unmask]</a>. <br><br>Geoff Layton<br> </span><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div></div><div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-ali=
gn:center'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif=
"'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter></span></div><div style=3D'ma=
rgin-bottom:12.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 10:19:07 -0400<br>F=
rom: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=3Dkbethell@IV=
YTECH.EDU" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: Re: Membe=
rship in ATEG<br>To: <a href=3D"http://us.mc1121.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?=
[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</=
a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span st=
yle=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I=
never received acknowledgement when I joined, so I am not sure if I am eve=
n on the rolls, yet. Is there some way I can check to find out my membershi=
p status?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'=
> </span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kath=
i</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span=
> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kathleen Bethe=
ll</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Assi=
stant Professor</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D=
'>Liberal Arts, English</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color=
:#1F497D'>Ivy Tech Community College</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans=
-serif";color:#1F497D'>200 Daniels Way</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sa=
ns-serif";color:#1F497D'>Bloomington, IN 47404</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Cali=
bri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><d=
iv style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in=
0in 0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:=
</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif=
"'> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a href=3D"http://us.mc11=
[log in to unmask]&" target=3D"=
_blank">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Amy Benjam=
in<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, August 20, 2011 10:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a href=
=3D"[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">http:[log in to unmask]
U" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Member=
ship in ATEG</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>As you k=
now, our hot new ATEG Journals are stacked and stampled in our mailroo=
m (aka my basement) ready to go out to ATEG members. As we now do=
have a better system of keeping track of, acknowledging, and servicing ATE=
G members, please consider joining officially. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div>=
</div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-f=
amily:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><=
/div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fa=
mily:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>See <a href=3D"http://www.ateg.org/"=
target=3D"_blank">www.ateg.org</a> for details, which are, we are happy to=
report, now accurate!</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-seri=
f";color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-seri=
f";color:black'>Membership in ATEG allows you to receive the Journal, publi=
shed twice yearly, and to keep ATEG as a (nagging) voice to our parent orga=
nization, NCTE. We maintain this listserv, our website, and are allowed to =
host a session at the NCTE annual conference. We also host an annual confer=
ence, gathering together all of the educators in the English-speaking, non-=
English-speaking, and non-speaking world, and non-world who are intere=
sted in the teaching of grammar. Thankfully, all of these people can fit ea=
sily into one room. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D=
MsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";=
color:black'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";c=
olor:black'>So keep those cards and letters coming!</span><o:p></o:p></p></=
div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Amy Benjamin</span><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>ATEG co-president</span><o=
:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LI=
STSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://li=
stserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"=
; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site at <=
a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o=
:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font=
-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please =
visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar=
chives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ate=
g.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web s=
ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><=
/span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this=
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.=
muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list&q=
uot; <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site a=
t <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, p=
lease visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.=
edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
es/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p><=
/p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ate=
g.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> <o:p></o:p></p></div></block=
quote></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>To join or leave this L=
ISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://l=
istserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.mu=
ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list&quo=
t; </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Visit ATEG's web =
site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a>=
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or le=
ave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=
=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave =
the list" <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web si=
te at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o=
:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
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oin or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg=
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iv></div></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSER=
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></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"ht=
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t; </span><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"=
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t;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"ht=
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C756396E5EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 26 Aug 2011 to 27 Aug 2011 (#2011-160)
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