I agree wholeheartedly with what you say here, David. And for me, the
contradiction is a serious consideration in my classroom. Do I teach
"Standard English" or do I accept as standard what the majority of my
students may actually agree upon as "correct"? I have often drawn attention
to a student's use of "I and John" when they should be using "me and John."
What fascinates me is that they frequently rush to change the phrase to
"John and I." I put it down to the elementary school training in "polite"
usage, which demands that you put others before yourself in a series.
However, I have NEVER met a student willing to use the first person pronoun
improperly ON ITS OWN. The fellow who writes "Me and her are having a great
time," would NEVER write "Me am having a great time," or "Her is having a
great time."
As far as the subjunctive is concerned, I agree with Jeff Glauner that it
may be leaving us. I don't for a moment believe, though, that it is
happening by choice. People cannot choose to not use something that they
have never learned. The question for me is should we give up teaching it
because only a few will learn and use it?
Always a pleasure to read this list -- thank you all.
Len Wyatt
Terry Fox Secondary School
Port Coquitlam
BC, Canada.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David D Mulroy" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2000 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: Verb form of if-subjunctive
> This discussion of can versus could is fascinating to me because of the
> larger issue that it raises, i.e., is there any sense in which a usage
> that is acceptable to a significant number of speakers -- or even to one
> speaker -- can be "wrong." I am certain that a huge majority of my
> students would find "can" perfectably acceptable in that sentence about
> the lonely kid. Nevertheless, I share the feeling that it is wrong, wrong,
> wrong. This seems to me to be an interesting contradiction. I feel the
> same way about "between you and I" despite the fact that that would
> probably be approved by a large majority.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Sep 2000, Wollin, Edith wrote:
>
> > I don't find it acceptable, and it isn't one of those things that I hear
> > many other people say either. Using I as the object of a preposition
when
> > there is a compound object is used by everyone but a few of us grammar
> > people now, (at least in Washington)but I don't hear can in this
context.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Johanna Rubba [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 10:02 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Verb form of if-subjunctive
> >
> >
> > "(1)The little child is lonely; he would be happier if he had someone
that
> > he can play with."
> >
> > Do any of the native speakers on this list find this sentence
> > grammatical? I can't imagine this being acceptable to anyone, but maybe
> > I'm wrong. The 'that' clause requires 'could'.
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Johanna Rubba Assistant Professor, Linguistics
> > English Department, California Polytechnic State University
> > One Grand Avenue * San Luis Obispo, CA 93407
> > Tel. (805)-756-2184 * Fax: (805)-756-6374 * Dept. Phone. 756-259
> > * E-mail: [log in to unmask] * Home page:
http://www.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
> > **
> > "Understanding is a lot like sex; it's got a practical purpose,
> > but that's not why people do it normally" - Frank
Oppenheimer
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
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