I see "(that) I read this clause as an adjectival clause modifying "The moment."
Scott Catledge
Professor Emeritus, history and languages
Baptist Bible College and Institute
---- ATEG automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> There are 4 messages totaling 563 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. the moment I read this clause (4)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 01:18:40 +0000
> From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: the moment I read this clause
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to explain noun phrases like, "the moment I read this clause."
> The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> It's an adverbial NP, but what kind of clause follows "moment"?
>
> You can say "the moment that I read this clause" but not *"the moment which I read this clause." A relative pronoun plays a role in its clause, but there's no slot for a pronoun here. So, not a relative clause.
>
> On the other hand, if the clause is a nominal appositive, we should be able to swap it with the noun phrase it renames, right? But you can't do that here:
> *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> Maybe the elided word is "when"?
> ??The moment when I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> Which would make it a relative clause that begins with an elided "when"? That doesn't sound especially grammatical to me, but maybe I've been thinking so much about it that I've got some semantic satiation going on.
>
> My students are asking me about this kind of construction (another example: "The day I saw you, I fell in love") and I'm wondering how to describe it. I'll check CGEL too but thought maybe someone on the list has already developed a student-friendly explanation.
>
> Thanks,
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 01:23:44 +0000
> From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: the moment I read this clause
>
> Wait a minute, maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe "the moment" is the adverbial noun phrase that modifies "read"?
> The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> Which would make "The moment I read this clause" an adverbial clause in which "the moment" is also adverbial (and can be replaced with "when")
> When I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> However, if "the moment" is itself adverbial, it ought to be able to move around in its clause, and I don't think it can:
> *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> OK, back to the drawing board **sigh**
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Beth Young [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:18 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: the moment I read this clause
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to explain noun phrases like, "the moment I read this clause."
> The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> It's an adverbial NP, but what kind of clause follows "moment"?
>
> You can say "the moment that I read this clause" but not *"the moment which I read this clause." A relative pronoun plays a role in its clause, but there's no slot for a pronoun here. So, not a relative clause.
>
> On the other hand, if the clause is a nominal appositive, we should be able to swap it with the noun phrase it renames, right? But you can't do that here:
> *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> Maybe the elided word is "when"?
> ??The moment when I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> Which would make it a relative clause that begins with an elided "when"? That doesn't sound especially grammatical to me, but maybe I've been thinking so much about it that I've got some semantic satiation going on.
>
> My students are asking me about this kind of construction (another example: "The day I saw you, I fell in love") and I'm wondering how to describe it. I'll check CGEL too but thought maybe someone on the list has already developed a student-friendly explanation.
>
> Thanks,
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 19:05:47 -0700
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: the moment I read this clause
>
> Beth,
>
> I think you're getting close with your adverbial analysis.
>
> First, "I read this clause" actually _is_ a relative clause. The relativized element is an adjunct, though. Relativized adjuncts are relatively common. Compare the following (the relative clause is in brackets:
>
> I will always remember the day [I met you __].
> That's not the way [you should interpret the clause __].
> Abuse was the reason [she left him __].
>
> So if it helps to think of a relative clause as being "derived" from an underlying basic clause, you could see it as related to clauses like "I read this clause Tuesday" or "I read this clause on the first day of class."
>
> The fact that you can't use plain "which" here isn't evidence against reading it as a relative clause. Notice that none of these examples allow plain "which" as the relative marker, but all permit "that," as does your example. And all of them _do_ permit "which" if we add a preposition ("the day on which I met you," etc.)
>
> So the relativized element is, to use the traditional terminology, an adverbial within the relative clause, and plain pronouns don't easily appear in that position.
>
> Second, "The moment I read this clause" is a noun phrase in which the relative clause is a subordinate element. And I think you're right that the whole NP is also a time adjunct. But in your test, you need to take out the comma:
>
> I read this clause the moment I began to wonder.
>
> I find this well formed, even if it might take a little more context to make this a pragmatically sensible sentence. And if you play around a bit with other time adjuncts, you'll see you wind up with constructions very similar to your example.
>
> I read this book the day of its release. --> The day [I read this book], my life was changed.
> I read this contract yesterday. --> The day [I read this contract]...
> I read this poem on her birthday. --> The first birthday [I read this poem]...
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 2015, at 6:23 PM, Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > Wait a minute, maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe "the moment" is the adverbial noun phrase that modifies "read"?
> > The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> > Which would make "The moment I read this clause" an adverbial clause in which "the moment" is also adverbial (and can be replaced with "when")
> > When I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> > However, if "the moment" is itself adverbial, it ought to be able to move around in its clause, and I don't think it can:
> > *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> > OK, back to the drawing board **sigh**
> >
> > Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > Associate Professor, English
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > University of Central Florida
> > "Reach for the Stars"
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Beth Young [[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:18 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: the moment I read this clause
> >
> > I'm trying to figure out how to explain noun phrases like, "the moment I read this clause."
> > The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> > It's an adverbial NP, but what kind of clause follows "moment"?
> >
> > You can say "the moment that I read this clause" but not *"the moment which I read this clause." A relative pronoun plays a role in its clause, but there's no slot for a pronoun here. So, not a relative clause.
> >
> > On the other hand, if the clause is a nominal appositive, we should be able to swap it with the noun phrase it renames, right? But you can't do that here:
> > *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> > Maybe the elided word is "when"?
> > ??The moment when I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> > Which would make it a relative clause that begins with an elided "when"? That doesn't sound especially grammatical to me, but maybe I've been thinking so much about it that I've got some semantic satiation going on.
> >
> > My students are asking me about this kind of construction (another example: "The day I saw you, I fell in love") and I'm wondering how to describe it. I'll check CGEL too but thought maybe someone on the list has already developed a student-friendly explanation.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Beth
> >
> > Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> > Associate Professor, English
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
> > University of Central Florida
> > "Reach for the Stars"
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 02:18:29 +0000
> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: the moment I read this clause
>
> Could you consider these as being content clauses acting as a complement to a noun? CGEL lists moment (and day) in the subsection on words that can head temporal noun phrases but that require complementation (p. 698).
>
> This type seems to be in contrast to ones in which the “moment” is being discussed as a moment, like in this example from COCA:
>
> In Greek theater, the epiphany is the moment when a god appears to impose order on the scene
>
> The ones that are when-able look more relative-y.
>
> — Bill Spruiell
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Beth Young <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 at 9:23 PM
> To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: the moment I read this clause
>
> Wait a minute, maybe I'm looking at it backwards. Maybe "the moment" is the adverbial noun phrase that modifies "read"?
> The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> Which would make "The moment I read this clause" an adverbial clause in which "the moment" is also adverbial (and can be replaced with "when")
> When I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> However, if "the moment" is itself adverbial, it ought to be able to move around in its clause, and I don't think it can:
> *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> OK, back to the drawing board **sigh**
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> ________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] on behalf of Beth Young [[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2015 9:18 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: the moment I read this clause
>
> I'm trying to figure out how to explain noun phrases like, "the moment I read this clause."
> The moment I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> It's an adverbial NP, but what kind of clause follows "moment"?
>
> You can say "the moment that I read this clause" but not *"the moment which I read this clause." A relative pronoun plays a role in its clause, but there's no slot for a pronoun here. So, not a relative clause.
>
> On the other hand, if the clause is a nominal appositive, we should be able to swap it with the noun phrase it renames, right? But you can't do that here:
> *I read this clause the moment, I began to wonder.
> Maybe the elided word is "when"?
> ??The moment when I read this clause, I began to wonder.
> Which would make it a relative clause that begins with an elided "when"? That doesn't sound especially grammatical to me, but maybe I've been thinking so much about it that I've got some semantic satiation going on.
>
> My students are asking me about this kind of construction (another example: "The day I saw you, I fell in love") and I'm wondering how to describe it. I'll check CGEL too but thought maybe someone on the list has already developed a student-friendly explanation.
>
> Thanks,
> Beth
>
> Dr. Beth Rapp Young
> Associate Professor, English
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
> University of Central Florida
> "Reach for the Stars"
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 6 Oct 2015 to 13 Oct 2015 (#2015-56)
> *********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
