Eduard,

I've very much with Johanna on the Celce-Murcia book.  We've used it
often here in the grammar course for the MATESOL, and it works quite
well.  Students are not confused by it; rather, they find it helpful.
But then they are also taught to use it as a source, a reference work.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Eduard C. Hanganu
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:27 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Grammar Certification

Johanna:

You state: 

>I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook 
>and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the 
>trainee's fault.

I beg to disagree with your evaluation of Celce-Murcia's textbook. I 
spent s graduate semester with it, and then consulted it again and 
again. The book is much too complex for the high school teacher, and 
almost useless for elementary TESOL education. It is in fact useful 
only for those who have a very advanced knowledge of both traditional 
and phrase-structure/generative-transformational grammar. For all 
others the textbook is confusing and overwhelming. Most of the 
foreing students in my TESOL grammar class based on Celce-Murcia got 
completely lost in the pages of the book. "The Grammar Book" is a 
reference grammar book, not a grammar course textbook. 


Eduard 


On Wed, 30 Aug 2006, Johanna Rubba wrote...

>Perhaps some of you are familiar with the book by Marianne Celce-
Murcia 
>and Diane Larsen-Freeman, "The ESL Grammar Book". I believe it is 
used 
>as a textbook in ESL teacher-training programs (it was at U of MT 
when 
>I taught there one semester a long time ago). It covers a great deal 
of 
>English grammar. I think if a teacher trainee had this as a textbook 
>and didn't learn anything about English grammar, it would be the 
>trainee's fault.
>
>The problem with many current ESL teachers is that, even if they had 
>grammar training in their teacher-prep courses, one semester or even 
>more is often not enough to make up for the many years missed in K-
12. 
>They might learn enough to pass a test and get their degree, but 
they 
>have to return to the subject again and again to get proficient 
enough 
>to teach grammar with ease. Although I don't agree with Phil's 
version 
>of what grammar to teach, I do agree that grammar teaching should 
start 
>early and continue throughout the grades. I also find it absurd that 
>students who want to become teachers of French, German, or whatever, 
>are often not required to take any linguistics (not even 
>second-language-acquisition theory or teaching methods). ESL 
teaching 
>is the only area of language education I know of that is based on 
real 
>linguistics instead of the "great literature" & grammar/translation 
>tradition. (Although inroads have been made by textbook authors like 
>Tracy Terrell and his associates.)
>
>Dr. Johanna Rubba, Associate Professor, Linguistics
>Linguistics Minor Advisor
>English Department
>California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
>E-mail: [log in to unmask]
>Tel.: 805.756.2184
>Dept. Ofc. Tel.: 805.756.2596
>Dept. Fax: 805.756.6374
>URL: http://www.cla.calpoly.edu/~jrubba
>
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