Jeff,
Obviously, you have much to offer the project, including access to
important materials. I don't think we want to assume that we should
serve the purposes others have set out, but it would be nice to be able
to assure people that their concerns are being met. Even a clear idea
of how we differ from prevailing standards is very useful. From what I
have seen, though, there's a huge disjunct between highly idealistic
standards and an appreciation for how hard it might be to get there.
I think why grammar, what context, and how to get students engaged are
real keys. That would put you right smack in the middle of scope and
sequence itself, which is fine with me.
Standard English is problematic in lots of ways. I don't know if the
project can (or wants to) get away with as radical an attitude toward
it as I have. But certainly one way to balance things out is to
advocate exploration of language use in lots of registers,
communities, forms.
Thanks to Amy Bemnjamin, I have been looking at high scoring and low
scoring writing samples for both fifth grade and high school, and you
can make a great case that the PRIMARY difference is in coherence and
cohesion. This would fit in well with advocating a rhetorical approach
to grammar, especially in early stages. Standard English doesn't give
us a way to look at effective sentences in context. In other words,
correcting the weak samples would not improve them. This should go
over well with composition teachers.
It's good to have you on board.
Craig
Craig, I believe I responded to some of your last questions privately
> earlier this morning before I read this post. In brief, sure, I'm ready to
> help as best I can. But as I explained privately, I have mixed feelings
> about this Scope and Sequence project. Here's some of what I wrote Craig
> this morning on this:
>
> "On the one hand, I think S&S diverts attention to questions of what
> grammar
> and when, when we
> really ought to focusing on why grammar, in what context, and how to get
> students engaged. On the other, I'm learning through my involvement with
> our
> state/national standards project that such huge investments and public
> commitments have been made to the scope and sequence type of thinking that
> nothing significant can be accomplished right now outside of that frame.
> In
> Louisiana, for example, it's a matter law, I believe, that state
> curriculum
> mandates can't be changed for 7 years. And the only discussion that's
> allowed right now (and we're 5 years out yet on the next cycle) is how to
> adjust or realign the current curriculum. But I'm also learning that
> there's
> great opportunity to effect meaningful change by working within that
> context.
>
> So . . . sure I'll start getting involve in ATEG's S&S. I think there are
> three contributions I'm in a position to make. First, I could help the
> group
> find ways to dovetail the S&S proposals with current state and national
> standards. For example, at this summer's ATEG meeting I could
> offer/discuss
> a side-by-side representation of current language standards from the
> American Diploma Project (a National Board of Governor's creation),
> related
> performance-ranked matrices or skill sets from ACT and SAT, and selected
> state college- and work-ready standards and expectations (I'll have deep
> access to at least a half dozen by that time). Or I could talk more
> generally about how an S&S proposal might fit more generally with the
> state
> and national initiatives that embed the ADP work. Second, I could advocate
> extending the scope of what our ATEG group is proposing, including for
> example knowledge and appreciation of language variation and change across
> region, racial/ethnic groups, time, purpose, etc. I'm concerned that
> current
> S&S thinking may be too exclusively focused on the internal structure of
> language ("standard" English, I'm assuming). I understand that needs to be
> the principle focus. But if we did a good job at that, we could also use
> it
> all as a chance to expand the scope of what it means to teach grammar. And
> third, of course, I can advocate of a specifically contextual or
> rhetorical
> approach to grammar. I'm wondering if it might not work to frame it this
> way: To let the first level representations of S&S articulate primarily
> the
> structural (even more or less traditional) stuff. But to develop deeper
> levels of representation that demonstrate what a good
> approach to that structure might look like, and those could all be highly
> contextualized and engaging. State and district administrators will never
> look much deeper than the first structurally-oriented levels, and they'll
> be
> pleased. Teachers will primarily look to the deeper applied levels, and
> that's where we
> can have real impact."
>
> Craig's suggestions for how grammar instruction might intersect with
> students' early engagement with narrative shows exactly the kind of
> dovetailing of grammar and students' broader engagment with language in
> school that I'm advocating.
>
> Dr. Jeff Wiemelt
> English
> Southeastern Louisiana University
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Hancock" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2006 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Grammars
>
>
>> Jeff,
>> I am working on an article focused on reclaiming "context" and
>> "minimalism" as concepts, so I have been giving this much thought.
>> One problem with Weaver's approach is that it is not a context-based
>> grammar, but a system for using context as a way to diagnose
>> decontextualised problems. (Correct errors when they show up.) And
>> minimalism doesn't have to mean using soft terms and avoiding an
>> accurate description of the language "at point of need". You can't
>> "scaffold" off of soft terminology. It's not transferable to the next
>> situation. >
>> To a modern sensibility, rhetoric has more to do with expressive and
>> interactive meanings than it does with representational ones. Of
>> course, the old rhetorical triangle included writer/speaker,
>> listener/reader, and world. These got picked up in the Prague School,
>> by Firth (in England), and eventually Halliday. Since this approach
>> to grammar is inherently rhetorical, there is no way NOT to be talking
>> about language in use when you talk about it. It's a little like
>> imagining a noncontextual approach to ecology. Ecology is ABOUT life
>> in the world.
>> In Australia, the intermediary focus in on genre, which is applied
>> much more widely than it is over here. (A marriage proposal is a
>> genre. As is an apology, job letter, story, editorial, and so on.)
>> Herb's article on verbs is a nice example, since his focus was on the
>> nuances of meaning these forms convey doing the work of writing.
>> (I was just looking at "advice" for story telling for an elementary
>> school curriculum, and the focus was on keeping events in
>> chronological order as the "correct" way. That sounds fine, until you
>> realize that stories don't often work that way. A good narrator
>> controls perspective, and the order of the happening and the order of
>> the telling don't even normally match. Often the opening is close to
>> climax, with some eventual background as to how all this came to pass.
>> Time/tense is largely determined by point of entry.)
>> Of course, analysis of how stories work (and how/why they are of
>> importance to us as a people) can be a great resource to both reading
>> and writing. Meanwhile, we'll find past tense verbs, lots of aspect,
>> verbal process clauses (for dialogue and conversation), speech
>> closely related to character (dialogue), careful use of perception
>> and feeling and thinking verbs for the narrator (unless it's a
>> dramatic narrator, creating a need to get those out), and so on.
>> I was interested in your comment about state standards. The ones I
>> have been looking at seem at odds with the curriculum. If students
>> coming to college can't punctuate, what are we to make of standards
>> that say it should be done "without error" in Junior high? Is it
>> reasonable to expect that students will be able to correct errors on
>> standardized tests without some conscious understanding of language?
>> This is at the heart of our Scope and Sequence project, and it would
>> be nice not to have to reinvent the wheel if standards and curriculum
>> guidelines are already in place. I know you're involved with that in
>> Louisiana. Can we count on you to help us out? What's good about the
>> current standards and what are you guys changing? Are you modeling
>> after someone else? Can we use your help to come up with advice about
>> how this should be done?
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>> Re: GrammarsMartha, I'll offer that I have very little technical
>>> understanding of "what a horse can and will do." Since I've never felt
>>> the
>>> urge to ride, why would I be interested? And isn't that the issue for
>>> our
>>> students? If they don't see the point of technical knowledge about
>>> grammar, why will they want to bother?
>>>
>>> I think this scope and sequence project just won't have much impact on
>>> students (and that's goal ultimately, isn't it?) as long as we allow
>>> ourselves to separate grammar and rhetoric--students' knowledge about
>>> language and their meaningful engagement in contexts of language use.
>>> Neither is prior. Students need the knowledge to engage, but just won't
>>> pursue that knowledge without the engagement (and not just the
>>> "promise"
>>> of engagement, by the way). This relationship is organic and
>>> irreducible.
>>>
>>> So I think Eduard's attraction to the name "rhetorical grammar"
>>> suggests
>>> a
>>> principled and crucial orientation for the scope and sequence project.
>>> That is, it's not just a matter of determining what grammatical
>>> elements
>>> to teach and how those elements can be logically sequenced with respect
>>> to
>>> one another, but just as crucially which elements are most likely to
>>> dovetail with students' broader engagement with language at any given
>>> point in time. We have a great many sets of state and national
>>> standards
>>> and curriculum guides that can help with this.
>>>
>>> What I'm saying then, is that scope and sequence need to be
>>> contextualized. Yes, Craig, we're back to "contextual grammar"! It's
>>> unfortunate how that description has been co-opted over the past
>>> generation such that it's equated with "minimalist grammars." I believe
>>> the same is true of "functional grammar" because of its close
>>> associations
>>> with a particular grammatical theory, which many folks just don't
>>> embrace.
>>> Without that baggage, I think those terms would be perfect
>>> descriptions.
>>> But given the current climate, I suggest that "rhetorical grammar" is
>>> the
>>> best option offered so far.
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>>
>>> Dr. Jeff Wiemelt
>>> English Department
>>> Director of Freshman English
>>> Southeastern Louisiana University
>>> 985-549-5761
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Martha Kolln
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 9:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Grammars
>>>
>>>
>>> Eduard,
>>>
>>>
>>> It's good to know that our efforts in ATEG are appreciated. I'm
>>> especially humbled by your words 'classic' and 'manifesto' in
>>> describing my words. Of course I have not abandoned "rhetorical
>>> grammar" with my use of the term "linguistic grammar." I consider my
>>> description of linguistic grammar in the same light as my book for
>>> teacher preparation, Understanding English Grammar--that is, a
>>> foundational description--whereas I consider my Rhetorical Grammar a
>>> text for writing classes (although it is also being used in teacher
>>> prep
>>> classes). I do think that we will have to include applications to
>>> writing in any program that we try to get accepted in K-12; but I also
>>> think that before we can discuss "RG" concepts such as cohesion and
>>> sentence focus and rhythm and stylistic variations and such, teachers
>>> and their students need the foundation of descriptive grammar, whatever
>>> we choose to call it; they need to understand how sentences work; how
>>> punctuation affects the message; how modification and subordination and
>>> coordination contribute.
>>>
>>>
>>> On the importance of that understanding, I like to quote Richard
>>> Weaver
>>> from his The Ethics of Rhetoric: "Using a Language may be compared to
>>> riding a horse. Much of one's success depends on an understanding of
>>> what it can and will do."
>>>
>>>
>>> Please join us in Connecticut next July.
>>>
>>>
>>> And thank you for your support--and your welcome words.
>>>
>>>
>>> Martha
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Martha:
>>>
>>> I understand your perspective. There is a pathologic fear of
>>> grammar
>>> in this country, which has been initiated and fed by some inept
>>> decision-makers at NCTE, and some English language *researchers*
>>> who
>>> had no idea what they were talking about, and irreparable damage
>>> has
>>> been done to many of the students who graduated from public school
>>> in
>>> this country. We have regressed to illiteracy, in spite of all the
>>> educational privileges American students have. I have been
>>> following
>>> you and Ed Vavra for the past years, and I know that you have done
>>> an
>>> incredible work to dispel that fear and to show that students
>>> benefit
>>> tremendously from an explicit knowledge of the grammar of their
>>> language.
>>>
>>> I have more than 20 *standard grammar* textbooks in my library, not
>>> counting the linguistics textbooks which discuss grammar from a
>>> linguistic perspective. Among those books there are an ìEnglish
>>> 3200: A Programmed Course in Grammar and Usageî published in 1962
>>> by
>>> Blumenthal, and the famous ìComprehensive Grammar of the English
>>> Languageî by Quirk, Greenbaum, Leech and Svartvik, 2004 edition. I
>>> have also started to read ìThe War Against Grammarî by Mulroy. You
>>> are represented also in this collection of grammars with two books,
>>> the ìRhetorical Grammar,î and the classic ìUnderstanding English
>>> Grammar.î
>>>
>>> What is interesting about theses textbooks is that each of them
>>> offers a specific *grammar model,* more or less different from the
>>> others. You have your own perspective, or approach to grammar, and
>>> I
>>> would call it *rhetorical grammar.* In the introduction of the book
>>> with the same title, you state:
>>>
>>> ìÖRhetorical grammar brings together the insights of composition
>>> researchers and linguists; it makes the connection between writing
>>> and grammar that has been missing from our classrooms. It also
>>> avoids
>>> the prescriptive rules of handbooks, offering instead explanations
>>> of
>>> the rhetorical choices that are available. And, perhaps what is
>>> most
>>> important, it gives students confidence in their own language
>>> ability
>>> by helping them recognize the intuitive grammar expertise that all
>>> human beings share.î(x ñ xi)
>>>
>>> I believe that this statement is a great *manifesto,* and there is
>>> evidence that you have followed through with your promises during
>>> more than 20 years of work to restore the value of grammar teaching
>>> and the dignity of those who believe that grammar has been wrongly
>>> removed from the curriculum and that students *could benefit* and
>>> *do
>>> benefit* from learning grammar.
>>>
>>> The first time I encountered your ìRhetorical Grammarî I thought
>>> that
>>> the name of your grammar model, the same with the title of your
>>> book,
>>> *rhetorical grammar,* was great. I wonder why you did not stay with
>>> it, especially because you defined it in a very good way, in
>>> contradistinction with the *traditional grammar* which has been
>>> taught before in this country and is still taught by some teachers.
>>>
>>> A short review of the most common grammar models shows that one
>>> encounters *prescriptive grammars,* *descriptive grammars,*
>>> *traditional grammars, *Latin-based grammars* *teaching grammars,
>>> *generative grammars,* transformational grammars,* *formal
>>> grammars,*
>>> *functional grammars,*etc. I believe that the term *linguistic
>>> grammar* is too vague, and the phrase is a pleonasm, as I mentioned
>>> in a previous message. Most of the grammars I have listed claim a
>>> linguistic basis. How can one distinguish the *linguistic grammar*
>>> you and ATEG promote from other *linguistic grammars*?
>>>
>>> If I had to select a name for the ATEGís *movement grammar* I would
>>> probably choose to stay with the name *RHETORICAL GRAMMAR.* The
>>> second option would be *NATURAL GRAMMAR,* because what most of us
>>> work to promote is the NATURAL STRUCTURE of the English language,
>>> as
>>> opposed to the imposition of a Latin-based grammar on the English
>>> language.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>> Eduard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Martha Kolln wrote...
>>>
>>> >Dear Eduard,
>>> >
>>> >I'm not sure how the term "linguistic grammar" got started; on the
>>> >other hand, I may be as responsible as anyone. I titled my
>>> >contribution to Grammar Alive, published in 2003 by NCTE, "An
>>> >Overview of Linguistic Grammar." I did so in order to distinguish
>>> my
>>> >description from that of traditional, Latin-based grammar. We
>>> >ATEGers wrote Grammar Alive for the thousands (tens of thousands?)
>>> of
>>> >English teachers who have been led to believe that teaching
>>> grammar
>>> >is a waste of time--and, in fact, may be downright harmful--for
>>> their
>>> >students. And for the most part, the only grammar they are
>>> familiar
>>> >with, if at all, is the traditional, Latin-based,
>>> >eight-parts-of-speech variety.
>>> >
>>> >I could have titled my chapter "new grammar"--but at age 60 or
>>> more
>>> >the structural grammar on which I base my classifications and
>>> >definitions and patterns is no longer new. I am using the
>>> adjective
>>> >"linguistic" simply to designate this sensible way of describing
>>> >grammar, based on the science of linguistics.
>>> >
>>> >One of the tenets of "linguistic grammar" that I emphasize--and
>>> one
>>> >that sets it apart from the Latin-based variety that finds its way
>>> >into traditional grammar books and grammar classes--is the
>>> importance
>>> >of recognizing the subconscious (unconscious?) grammar knowledge
>>> that
>>> >students bring to the classroom, knowledge based on our human
>>> ability
>>> >to construct an intricate grammatical system from whatever
>>> language
>>> >environment into which we are born. (I have no problem
>>> relinquishing
>>> >"innate.")
>>> >
>>> >And I'd be happy to stop using the term "linguistic grammar" if I
>>> >could think of a good replacement. I welcome suggestions.
>>> >
>>> >Martha
>>> >
>>> >P.S. to Craig: We believed that NCTE was our best bet as a
>>> >publisher. And the book has certainly been given a great deal of
>>> >publicity--and is selling well, I understand ) NCTE would not
>>> >publish it if it had contained suggestions for scope & sequence.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>Dear Phil:
>>> >>
>>> >>In "A Student's Dictionary of Language and Linguistics," Trask
>>> (1997)
>>> >>defines *grammar* as "that part of the structure of a language
>>> which
>>> >>includes sentence structure(syntax) and word structure
>>> (morphology)"
>>> >>(p. 29). As linguists well know, *morphology and *syntax* are an
>>> >>integral and part of the science of language, which is
>>> *linguistics.*
>>> >>
>>> >>The term *linguistic grammar* is not a linguistic expression.It
>>> is
>>> a
>>> >>pleonasm, a redundant expression, which confuses those who are
>>> not
>>> >>familiar with linguistics and its subfields.
>>> >>
>>> >>Regards,
>>> >>
>>> >>Eduard
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On Sat, 11 Feb 2006, Phil Bralich wrote...
>>> >>
>>> >>>I have been in grammar/syntax for over 25 years, but it is only
>>> on
>>> >>this list that I have heard of "Linguistic Grammar." Are there
>>> >>formal descriptions and discussion of it available in journals
>>> and
>>> >>books? Are there recognized authors on the subject? Also, does
>>> >>anyone know where I might get a copy of Tim Hadley's
>>> dissertation?
>>> >>>
>>> >>>Phil Bralich
>>> >>
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