I get the same reading as Claudia. "Try and" is not new in English; it goes back to the 12th c, but in Modern English it does have an informal flavor. The point Claudia makes, though, is that "try and" and "try to" don't always mean the same thing.
Try to stop me.
Try and stop me.
The infinitive actually invites the action. The conjunction is more of a dare. We ave other such constructions as well. "Go and" is used in both informal and formal English and is also quite old. I come from a part of the country where, informally, we use "take and" as in "He took and wrecked his car." In these uses, "try," "take," and "go" have almost a modal function. "Try" can be used in this sense only in the imperative. "He tried and stopped him" has the lexical meaning of "attempt." "Take and help me with this," to a "take and" speaker, doesn't feel right. "He went and did likewise" involves him moving away.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Claudia Kiburz [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: February 2, 2009 11:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Developmental phases of grammar knowledge
I read, "Just try and stop me," as a threat.
Just try and see what I will do.
Just try and I will knock up up against the wall.
Just try and stop me (and I will kill you).
"Castilleja, Janet" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I very much enjoyed the discussion about whether ‘that’ can be a pronoun in relative clauses. I don’t believe I ever really thought about it before. I have just assumed that it is a pronoun, because that is what I was taught, but also because, to me, it seems to function as one. But that is not what I’m writing about. In one of the posts, which I can’t find now, somebody mentioned constructions such as ‘just try and stop me.’ When my students use this structure, I usually change it to ‘…try to stop me.’ From the brief mention, though, it sounds like there might be a different explanation in which it is not an error. Does anyone care to elucidate?
Thanks in advance!
Janet Castilleja
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 10:10 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Developmental phases of grammar knowledge
If I remember correctly, children start being able to process passives at around the same time they start demonstrating the ability to recognize that someone is deliberately not telling the truth, which is kind of interesting.
With some of the more complex constructions, particularly low-frequency ones like absolutes, I think it’s worth asking whether we’re seeing an actual developmental effect, or (instead) simply the result of lack of exposure. It’s one thing to say we don’t see students producing these, it’s another to say they can’t. They certainly don’t hear absolute phrases much in everyday speech, and there are lots of options one can use instead of an absolute (I’m not counting the Being that… that native Michiganders seem to use a lot; I suspect it’s just a periphrastic conjunction).
Bill Spruiell
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Myers, Marshall
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2009 9:49 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Developmental phases of grammar knowledge
Scott,
I believe passive voice is one of those constructions, too.
Children at 5 or below see the grammatical subject as the actor---which makes some sense considering the nature of most English syntax.
Marshall
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Developmental phases of grammar knowledge
Dear List,
I have read that some constructions do not appear in student writing until they are at the right age. I do not recall where I read this, but it seems to go against my experience, specifically, as I recall, the claim that absolute phrases do not show up until students are around 16. Has anyone else read anything like this? Does anyone have any references for this? Is this a widespread idea?
Scott Woods
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