'They' is not 1st person singular but 3rd plural. It is genderless. Any
usage of 'they' as 1st person is an example of illiteracy--regardless of
what
rappers and other abusers of English say. I have had some quasi-illiterate
English professors--one marked 'bases' as a misspelling of 'basis' even
though the context clearly required a plural. He had his PhD in English
literature--not in English--and was not prepared to grade literature papers
on their grammar, punctuation, spelling, and rhetoric, as well as their
content. Even my worst literature professor would have been shocked by
'they' as a 1st person singular pronoun--none were that illiterate. I did
not even hear such a usage from my rural seventh-graders when I taught
secondary. My big-city minority students twenty years later also were not
that illiterate.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Saturday, January 07, 2012 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Jan 2012 to 6 Jan 2012 (#2012-6)
There are 10 messages totalling 3343 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Spoken vs. formal written English (5)
2. "They" - New 1st Pn. Genderless Singular
3. An old chestnut of a topic (4)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:15:20 -0500
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
--20cf307ca632a69caa04b5d52239
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hello...
I'm understanding that the "grammar in context" model means finding
grammatical functions and processes that just happen to happen in a given
piece of prose, academic or otherwise. But then what? We take out a
sentence, a clause, a phrase, whatever and analyze it for its grammar (what
other choice would we have, anyway, since we're bound to a few words at a
time when reading that way?). If "context" simply means the plot, focus,
theme, purpose, or audience of a text, then analyzing how grammar works
specifically to that context is really more about analyzing rhetorical
strategies (looking at bits of language for what they do to the larger
whole and thus to the reader/listener). Looking sentence level for things
like adjectives etc is looking at grammar isolated - and I'm not saying
that's a bad thing. We study prepositional phrases first and then read
Hemingway - and it clicks. Maybe I haven't seen a successful "context"
model for the High School level... and to get back to the SAT and other
high stakes tests, the grammar error identification questions look at
single sentences without larger rhetorical/narrative context. We'd like to
be able to approach many goals; carrying sound reading comprehension
strategies that consider both grammar and rhetoric and also being able to
pass a very cold state, board, or agency test is often a funky marriage for
the average student.
Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature anthologies for which Kate
Kinsella happens to be a contributing author. I was fascinated by the
"Academic English Second Language" assertion, as we've had this
conversation among faculty dozens of times. Yet teachers simply go ahead
and assign x number of pages to read and still wonder why students (who
actually do pass their eyes over letters and words) come back and fail
reading check quizzes. I'd like to know more about her comments and
suggestions, especially since she writes for textbooks...
Thank you...
John
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Terre and Herb,
>
> Herb raises some excellent questions for us to consider as we think
> through how we teach grammar -- all the language arts, actually. I think
> his idea about "a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" is
> very important. I certainly agree with the idea of teaching grammar in
> context, but I have also observed that often "grammar in context" means
not
> teaching much grammar (or language development) at all. Herb's idea of a
> more carefully thought through scope and sequence would be very helpful --
> though I recognize all the problems confronting anyone willing to take on
> this onerous task. We've discussed this issue numerous times in one way
or
> another on this site.
>
> Terre's integrated approach to teaching reading, vocabulary, writing, and
> grammar makes much sense. Finding those readings that students find
> relevant can certainly be a problem. (I've found one on car buying that
my
> college students enjoy; the author, a former car salesman, discusses how
> customers are manipulated because of their ignorance.)
>
> Jack
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
> Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> Hi Herb,
>
> Textbooks for teaching grammar to English Language Learners in secondary
> and higher education are going in the direction of teaching grammar in
> context, especially in more academic contexts. It's much easier to get
> students to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on
> worker's rights and then discuss the article as well as students'
> experiences afterwards. Students care about the topic and want to talk
> about it. Along the way, they learn the correct placement of adjectives
as
> well as great vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up within
> the context. ...this just happens to be the approach taken on the
> textbooks series I'm working on. I'm not endorsing it, for the record.
>
>
> Best,
>
> Terre
>
> Teresa Lintner
> Senior Development Editor
> Cambridge University Press
> 32 Avenue of the Americas
> New York, New York 10013-2473
> Telephone: 212 337-5070
> Fax: 212 645-5960
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: 12/26/2011 02:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
> Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> Jack,
>
> You raise important questions or pedagogy and of content, questions we
have
> discussed at length on this forum without reaching consensus. Should
> grammar be taught as content? Should it be taught as an adjunct to the
> teaching of writing? What you suggest is that a significant amount of
> grammar, grammar that is useful to writers, can be taught in the process
of
> meeting the needs of developing writers. And this leads me to wonder
> whether a grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce
> grammatical knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it in a
> way that makes its relevance obvious. This suggests a much more
> thorough-going grammar in context model than we usually see in writing
> classrooms, rather, an approach that starts in early grades and
> incorporates grammar into language arts activities across the board.
>
> Not being a K12 teacher, I may be describing what some teachers are
already
> doing.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dixon, Jack
> Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 6:59 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> Terre:
>
> Thank you for your detailed response. I do want to check out Kate
> Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames. (Any
> titles in particular where I should start?) I am familiar with "They Say,
> I Say" and agree that it can be useful for helping students understand
> those deeper cognitive structures that academic writers use - actually
used
> by more than just academics.
>
> I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. Are the
> two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourself, or
> are they published somewhere so that I could access them?
>
> What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary and
> using sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to communicate
> without putting the focus on error. So many objectives that involve
> developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction.
> While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomplish
> larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. In my classes over
> the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English at an
> open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence imitation,
> tied with comprehension. I take sentences with some level of structural
> complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will understand when we
> read and discuss them. I then model imitating the structure, not the
> content; we do a few together; then, I have them write a few original
> sentences which we read around the room. At the end of that session, the
> students feel they have done something important.
>
> My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more grammar
> than they think they do and that we are going to build on what they know.
> As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduce them to
> the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to the ways the
> meaning gets conveyed.
>
> Jack
>
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:55 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> Hi Jack,
>
> Several people have contacted me individually about this exercise. I'm
> happy to share my rubric with you (and anyone else), if you'd like. I'm an
> editor by day, but at night I teach an intermediate level ESL grammar and
> academic writing class at a community college. Every semester I've gotten
a
> few Gen 1.5ers and they're usually quite frustrated because they don't
see
> themselves as ESL students - and they're not the typical student in my
> class. Because of learning English by 'ear', their level of proficiency is
> hard to pinpoint - they use passive constructions but leave out verb
> inflections and auxiliaries and have lots of SPEWD.The exercise has been a
> way for me to address the issue of spoken vs. written English right from
> the start in a way that makes my Gen 1.5ers feel a sense of accomplishment
> that they've "mastered" a register in English. It also helps them
> understand what they need to focus on in writing. The rest of the class
> understands why they can't understand what English speakers are saying
> around them even though they have some knowledge of the grammatical rules.
>
> The challenge is figuring out ways of teaching that help them learn this
> register in speaking and writing. I've been very influenced by Kate
> Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames in spoken
> tasks to help students become familiar with this language. If the students
> have learned the language by 'ear' then it seems likely that if they are
> given opportunities to use academic language to express ideas, then this
> language will seep into their writing more naturally. That's my thinking
> and that's what I'm exploring more and more in my teaching. I'm also
> reading "They Say, I Say", which, I think, takes a similar approach in
> terms of sentence frames.
>
> I'm happy to hear from others on this topic.
>
> Terre
>
>
> Teresa Lintner
> Senior Development Editor
> Cambridge University Press
> 32 Avenue of the Americas
> New York, New York 10013-2473
> Telephone: 212 337-5070
> Fax: 212 645-5960
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: 12/21/2011 09:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
> Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> This strategy sounds excellent.
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
> [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:09 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> The Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English would be a good
resource.
> One thing I do with my ESL students at the beginning of the semester is to
> present them with two short essays on the same topic, one written in SPEWD
> (I love that acronym!) and the other in academic English. Then I ask them
> to analyze the two essays using a rubric that helps them recognize the
> differences between the two registers. A revelation for my Gen 1.5ers is
> realizing that "gonna" is actually "going to."
>
> Terre
>
>
> Teresa Lintner
> Senior Development Editor
> Cambridge University Press
> 32 Avenue of the Americas
> New York, New York 10013-2473
> Telephone: 212 337-5070
> Fax: 212 645-5960
> Email: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
> From: Stephen King <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: 12/20/2011 06:57 PM
> Subject: Spoken vs. formal written English
> Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>
> Can anyone direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the differences
> between spoken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a
> great many of my community college students, especially those who have
been
> out of school for some time, use a version of English that could be
> characterized as "Spoken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested the
> acronym "SPEWD.") I have my own list of those differences, but am looking
> for other resources. Many thanks in advance!
>
> Steve King
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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>
--
John Chorazy
English III Honors and Academic
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
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--20cf307ca632a69caa04b5d52239
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div>Hello...</div><div>=A0</div><div>I'm understanding that the=A0&quo=
t;grammar in context" model means finding grammatical functions and pr=
ocesses that just happen to happen in a given piece of prose, academic or o=
therwise. But then what? We take out a sentence, a clause, a phrase, whatev=
er=A0and analyze it for its grammar (what other choice would we have, anywa=
y, since we're bound to a=A0few words=A0at a time when reading that way=
?).=A0If "context" simply means the plot, focus, theme, purpose, =
or audience=A0of a text, then analyzing how grammar works specifically to t=
hat context is really more about analyzing rhetorical strategies (looking a=
t bits of=A0language for what=A0they do to the larger whole and thus to the=
reader/listener).=A0Looking sentence level for things like adjectives etc=
=A0is looking at grammar isolated=A0- and I'm not saying that's a b=
ad thing.=A0We study prepositional phrases first and then read Hemingway - =
and=A0it clicks. Maybe I haven't seen a successful=A0"context"=
; model for the High School level... and to get back to the SAT and other h=
igh stakes tests, the grammar error identification=A0questions look at sing=
le sentences without larger rhetorical/narrative context. We'd like to =
be able to approach many goals; carrying sound reading comprehension strate=
gies that consider both grammar and rhetoric and also being able to pass a =
very cold state, board,=A0or agency test is often a funky marriage for the =
average student.</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature anthologies=A0f=
or which Kate Kinsella happens to be a contributing author. I was fascinate=
d by the "Academic English Second Language" assertion, as we'=
ve had this conversation among faculty dozens of times. Yet teachers simply=
go ahead and assign x number of pages to read and still wonder why student=
s (who actually do pass their eyes over letters and words) come back and fa=
il reading check quizzes. I'd like to know more about her comments and =
suggestions, especially since she writes for textbooks...</div>
<div>=A0</div><div>Thank you...</div><div>=A0</div><div>John</div><div>=A0<=
/div><div>=A0</div><div>=A0</div><div><br><br>=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote">On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></s=
pan> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class=
=3D"gmail_quote">Terre and Herb,<br>
<br>
Herb raises some excellent questions for us to consider as we think through=
how we teach grammar -- all the language arts, actually. =A0I think his id=
ea about "a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" is=
very important. =A0I certainly agree with the idea of teaching grammar in =
context, but I have also observed that often "grammar in context"=
means not teaching much grammar (or language development) at all. =A0Herb&=
#39;s idea of a more carefully thought through scope and sequence would be =
very helpful -- though I recognize all the problems confronting anyone will=
ing to take on this onerous task. =A0We've discussed this issue numerou=
s times in one way or another on this site.<br>
<br>
Terre's integrated approach to teaching reading, vocabulary, writing, a=
nd grammar makes much sense. =A0Finding those readings that students find r=
elevant can certainly be a problem. =A0(I've found one on car buying th=
at my college students enjoy; the author, a former car salesman, discusses =
how customers are manipulated because of their ignorance.)<br>
<br>
Jack<br>
<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Tere=
sa Lintner<br>
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English<br>
<br>
Hi Herb,<br>
<br>
Textbooks for teaching grammar to English Language Learners in secondary<br=
>
and higher education are going in the direction of teaching grammar in<br>
context, especially in more academic contexts. =A0It's much easier to g=
et<br>
students to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on<br>
worker's rights and then discuss the article as well as students'<b=
r>
experiences afterwards. Students care about the topic and want to talk<br>
about it. Along the way, they learn the =A0correct placement of adjectives =
as<br>
well as great vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up within<b=
r>
the =A0context. =A0...this just happens to be the approach taken on the<br>
textbooks series I'm working on. =A0I'm not endorsing it, for the r=
ecord.<br>
<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
<br>
Terre<br>
<br>
Teresa Lintner<br>
Senior Development Editor<br>
Cambridge University Press<br>
32 Avenue of the Americas<br>
New York, New York 10013-2473<br>
Telephone: 212 337-5070<br>
Fax: 212 645-5960<br>
Email: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>=
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: =A0 "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a href=3D"mailto:hstahlke@BSU=
.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
To: =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
O.EDU</a><br>
Date: =A0 12/26/2011 02:32 PM<br>
Subject: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Re: Spoken vs. formal written English<br>
Sent by: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0<<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATE=
[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Jack,<br>
<br>
You raise important questions or pedagogy and of content, questions we have=
<br>
discussed at length on this forum without reaching consensus. =A0Should<br>
grammar be taught as content? =A0Should it be taught as an adjunct to the<b=
r>
teaching of writing? =A0What you suggest is that a significant amount of<br=
>
grammar, grammar that is useful to writers, can be taught in the process of=
<br>
meeting the needs of developing writers. =A0And this leads me to wonder<br>
whether a grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce<br>
grammatical knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it in a<br=
>
way that makes its relevance obvious. =A0This suggests a much more<br>
thorough-going grammar in context model than we usually see in writing<br>
classrooms, rather, an approach that starts in early grades and<br>
incorporates grammar into language arts activities across the board.<br>
<br>
Not being a K12 teacher, I may be describing what some teachers are already=
<br>
doing.<br>
<br>
Herb<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<br>
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
</a>] On Behalf Of Dixon, Jack<br>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 6:59 AM<br>
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a=
><br>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English<br>
<br>
Terre:<br>
<br>
Thank you for your detailed response. =A0I do want to check out Kate<br>
Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames. (Any<=
br>
titles in particular where I should start?) =A0I am familiar with "The=
y Say,<br>
I Say" and agree that it can be useful for helping students understand=
<br>
those deeper cognitive structures that academic writers use - actually used=
<br>
by more than just academics.<br>
<br>
I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. =A0Are the<=
br>
two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourself, or<b=
r>
are they published somewhere so that I could access them?<br>
<br>
What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary and<br>
using sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to communicate<=
br>
without putting the focus on error. =A0So many objectives that involve<br>
developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction.<br>
While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomplish<b=
r>
larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. =A0In my classes over<=
br>
the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English at an<br>
open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence imitation,<=
br>
tied with comprehension. =A0I take sentences with some level of structural<=
br>
complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will understand when we<br=
>
read and discuss them. =A0I then model imitating the structure, not the<br>
content; we do a few together; then, I have them write a few original<br>
sentences which we read around the room. =A0At the end of that session, the=
<br>
students feel they have done something important.<br>
<br>
My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more grammar<br=
>
than they think they do and that we are going to build on what they know.<b=
r>
As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduce them to<b=
r>
the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to the ways the<br=
>
meaning gets conveyed.<br>
<br>
Jack<br>
<br>
<br>
________________________________________<br>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:57:09 -0500
From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C7EFC7FCDEMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
When I used the term "grammar in context" earlier in this context, I was in=
tentionally using it in a broader sense that it typically has in the litera=
ture. A number of years ago I did a summer workshop for writing teachers i=
n which we chose constructions and grammatical categories on the basis of d=
iscourse needs. So we dealt with constructions that change focus and topic=
, ways of foregrounding and backgrounding, etc. That led us to talking abo=
ut phrases, clauses, parts of speech, grammatical relations, etc. always in=
the context of effective expression. Unfortunately, I no longer have the =
notes or papers from that class, but I remember iis fondly. The students, =
all secondary and middle writing teachers, were a very thoughtful bunch. O=
f course, Martha Kolln's work is deservedly respected for its pioneering of=
this sort of approach.
In my grammar classes, I've frequently used poems as objects of analysis. =
One of my favorites, and one of the most challenging, is Sir Philip Sidney'=
s sonnet "With how sad steps."
With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies,
How silently, and with how wan a face!
What! May it be that even in heav'nly place
That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes 5
Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case.
I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit? 10
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet
Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
Sidney is, of course, mid-sixteenth c., which means Early Modern English, a=
nd that makes his language a bit of a challenge for students. As an exerci=
se, try grammatically analyzing the four sentences found in the last six li=
nes.
On an old chestnut of a topic, the poem also illustrates some interesting h=
istorical phenomena in the uses of "that."
Line 3: "that" is a subordinating conjunction
Line 5: "that" is an EME use of that to mark "if" as a subordinating const=
ruction.
Line 8: "that" introduces a nonrestrictive relative clause, something gram=
mars generally tell us is wrong.
Line 13: "that" functions as in line 5, supporting "whom" as a subordinato=
r.
But that's another topic.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 12:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Hello...
I'm understanding that the "grammar in context" model means finding grammat=
ical functions and processes that just happen to happen in a given piece of=
prose, academic or otherwise. But then what? We take out a sentence, a cla=
use, a phrase, whatever and analyze it for its grammar (what other choice w=
ould we have, anyway, since we're bound to a few words at a time when readi=
ng that way?). If "context" simply means the plot, focus, theme, purpose, o=
r audience of a text, then analyzing how grammar works specifically to that=
context is really more about analyzing rhetorical strategies (looking at b=
its of language for what they do to the larger whole and thus to the reader=
/listener). Looking sentence level for things like adjectives etc is lookin=
g at grammar isolated - and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. We study pre=
positional phrases first and then read Hemingway - and it clicks. Maybe I h=
aven't seen a successful "context" model for the High School level... and t=
o get back to the SAT and other high stakes tests, the grammar error identi=
fication questions look at single sentences without larger rhetorical/narra=
tive context. We'd like to be able to approach many goals; carrying sound r=
eading comprehension strategies that consider both grammar and rhetoric and=
also being able to pass a very cold state, board, or agency test is often =
a funky marriage for the average student.
Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature anthologies for which Kate Kinsell=
a happens to be a contributing author. I was fascinated by the "Academic En=
glish Second Language" assertion, as we've had this conversation among facu=
lty dozens of times. Yet teachers simply go ahead and assign x number of pa=
ges to read and still wonder why students (who actually do pass their eyes =
over letters and words) come back and fail reading check quizzes. I'd like =
to know more about her comments and suggestions, especially since she write=
s for textbooks...
Thank you...
John
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack <[log in to unmask]<mailto=
:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Terre and Herb,
Herb raises some excellent questions for us to consider as we think through=
how we teach grammar -- all the language arts, actually. I think his idea=
about "a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" is very import=
ant. I certainly agree with the idea of teaching grammar in context, but I=
have also observed that often "grammar in context" means not teaching much=
grammar (or language development) at all. Herb's idea of a more carefully=
thought through scope and sequence would be very helpful -- though I recog=
nize all the problems confronting anyone willing to take on this onerous ta=
sk. We've discussed this issue numerous times in one way or another on thi=
s site.
Terre's integrated approach to teaching reading, vocabulary, writing, and g=
rammar makes much sense. Finding those readings that students find relevan=
t can certainly be a problem. (I've found one on car buying that my colleg=
e students enjoy; the author, a former car salesman, discusses how customer=
s are manipulated because of their ignorance.)
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Hi Herb,
Textbooks for teaching grammar to English Language Learners in secondary
and higher education are going in the direction of teaching grammar in
context, especially in more academic contexts. It's much easier to get
students to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on
worker's rights and then discuss the article as well as students'
experiences afterwards. Students care about the topic and want to talk
about it. Along the way, they learn the correct placement of adjectives as
well as great vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up within
the context. ...this just happens to be the approach taken on the
textbooks series I'm working on. I'm not endorsing it, for the record.
Best,
Terre
Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Date: 12/26/2011 02:32 PM
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Jack,
You raise important questions or pedagogy and of content, questions we have
discussed at length on this forum without reaching consensus. Should
grammar be taught as content? Should it be taught as an adjunct to the
teaching of writing? What you suggest is that a significant amount of
grammar, grammar that is useful to writers, can be taught in the process of
meeting the needs of developing writers. And this leads me to wonder
whether a grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce
grammatical knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it in a
way that makes its relevance obvious. This suggests a much more
thorough-going grammar in context model than we usually see in writing
classrooms, rather, an approach that starts in early grades and
incorporates grammar into language arts activities across the board.
Not being a K12 teacher, I may be describing what some teachers are already
doing.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf=
Of Dixon, Jack
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 6:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Terre:
Thank you for your detailed response. I do want to check out Kate
Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames. (Any
titles in particular where I should start?) I am familiar with "They Say,
I Say" and agree that it can be useful for helping students understand
those deeper cognitive structures that academic writers use - actually used
by more than just academics.
I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. Are the
two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourself, or
are they published somewhere so that I could access them?
What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary and
using sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to communicate
without putting the focus on error. So many objectives that involve
developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction.
While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomplish
larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. In my classes over
the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English at an
open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence imitation,
tied with comprehension. I take sentences with some level of structural
complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will understand when we
read and discuss them. I then model imitating the structure, not the
content; we do a few together; then, I have them write a few original
sentences which we read around the room. At the end of that session, the
students feel they have done something important.
My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more grammar
than they think they do and that we are going to build on what they know.
As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduce them to
the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to the ways the
meaning gets conveyed.
Jack
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When I us=
ed the term “grammar in context” earlier in this context, I was=
intentionally using it in a broader sense that it typically has in the lit=
erature. A number of years ago I did a summer workshop for writing te=
achers in which we chose constructions and grammatical categories on the ba=
sis of discourse needs. So we dealt with constructions that change fo=
cus and topic, ways of foregrounding and backgrounding, etc. That led=
us to talking about phrases, clauses, parts of speech, grammatical relatio=
ns, etc. always in the context of effective expression. Unfortunately=
, I no longer have the notes or papers from that class, but I remember iis =
fondly. The students, all secondary and middle writing teachers, were=
a very thoughtful bunch. Of course, Martha Kolln’s work is des=
ervedly respected for its pioneering of this sort of approach.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"=
Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-se=
rif";color:#1F497D'>In my grammar classes, I’ve frequently used poems=
as objects of analysis. One of my favorites, and one of the most cha=
llenging, is Sir Philip Sidney’s sonnet “With how sad steps.=
221;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.=
0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"=
'>With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb’st the skies,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"=
'>How silently, and with how wan a face!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>What! May it=
be that even in heav’nly place<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>That busy archer his =
sharp arrows tries?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sure, if that long-with-love-acquaint=
ed eyes &n=
bsp; 5<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Can judge of love, tho=
u feel’st a lover’s case.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I read it in thy look=
s, thy languisht grace<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To me, that feel the like, thy state=
descries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fa=
mily:"Arial","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Then, ev’n of fello=
wship, O Moon, tell me,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Is constant love deem’d there=
but want of wit? &nbs=
p; 10<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span sty=
le=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Are beauties there as proud as here=
they be?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-fam=
ily:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Do they above love to be lov’d, and yet<o:p=
></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","=
sans-serif"'>Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"=
'>Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?</span><span style=3D'font-famil=
y:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";=
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=
=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sidn=
ey is, of course, mid-sixteenth c., which means Early Modern English, and t=
hat makes his language a bit of a challenge for students. As an exerc=
ise, try grammatically analyzing the four sentences found in the last six l=
ines.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>On an old chestnut of a topic, the poem=
also illustrates some interesting historical phenomena in the uses of R=
20;that.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:=
p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0=
pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Line 3: “t=
hat” is a subordinating conjunction<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DM=
soNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"=
;color:#1F497D'>Line 5: “that” is an EME use of that to m=
ark “if” as a subordinating construction.<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",=
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Line 8: “that” introduces a n=
onrestrictive relative clause, something grammars generally tell us is wron=
g.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0p=
t;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Line 13: “t=
hat” functions as in line 5, supporting “whom” as a subor=
dinator.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But that’s another topic.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","s=
ans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b=
><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</=
span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'=
> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
.EDU] <b>On Behalf Of </b>John Chorazy<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 06, =
2012 12:15 AM<br><b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re:=
Spoken vs. formal written English<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello...<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal>I'm understanding that the "grammar in context" model=
means finding grammatical functions and processes that just happen to happ=
en in a given piece of prose, academic or otherwise. But then what? We take=
out a sentence, a clause, a phrase, whatever and analyze it for its g=
rammar (what other choice would we have, anyway, since we're bound to a&nbs=
p;few words at a time when reading that way?). If "context&q=
uot; simply means the plot, focus, theme, purpose, or audience of a te=
xt, then analyzing how grammar works specifically to that context is really=
more about analyzing rhetorical strategies (looking at bits of langua=
ge for what they do to the larger whole and thus to the reader/listene=
r). Looking sentence level for things like adjectives etc is look=
ing at grammar isolated - and I'm not saying that's a bad thing. =
We study prepositional phrases first and then read Hemingway - and it =
clicks. Maybe I haven't seen a successful "context" model fo=
r the High School level... and to get back to the SAT and other high stakes=
tests, the grammar error identification questions look at single sent=
ences without larger rhetorical/narrative context. We'd like to be able to =
approach many goals; carrying sound reading comprehension strategies that c=
onsider both grammar and rhetoric and also being able to pass a very cold s=
tate, board, or agency test is often a funky marriage for the average =
student.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature a=
nthologies for which Kate Kinsella happens to be a contributing author=
. I was fascinated by the "Academic English Second Language" asse=
rtion, as we've had this conversation among faculty dozens of times. Yet te=
achers simply go ahead and assign x number of pages to read and still wonde=
r why students (who actually do pass their eyes over letters and words) com=
e back and fail reading check quizzes. I'd like to know more about her comm=
ents and suggestions, especially since she writes for textbooks...<o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal>Thank you...<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>John<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:=
p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br> <o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> wro=
te:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Terre and Herb,<br><br>Herb raises s=
ome excellent questions for us to consider as we think through how we teach=
grammar -- all the language arts, actually. I think his idea about &=
quot;a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" is very impo=
rtant. I certainly agree with the idea of teaching grammar in context=
, but I have also observed that often "grammar in context" means =
not teaching much grammar (or language development) at all. Herb's id=
ea of a more carefully thought through scope and sequence would be very hel=
pful -- though I recognize all the problems confronting anyone willing to t=
ake on this onerous task. We've discussed this issue numerous times i=
n one way or another on this site.<br><br>Terre's integrated approach to te=
aching reading, vocabulary, writing, and grammar makes much sense. Fi=
nding those readings that students find relevant can certainly be a problem=
. (I've found one on car buying that my college students enjoy; the a=
uthor, a former car salesman, discusses how customers are manipulated becau=
se of their ignorance.)<br><br>Jack<br><br><br>-----Original Message-----<b=
r>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Te=
resa Lintner<br>Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM<br>To: <a href=3D=
"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: =
Re: Spoken vs. formal written English<br><br>Hi Herb,<br><br>Textbooks for =
teaching grammar to English Language Learners in secondary<br>and higher ed=
ucation are going in the direction of teaching grammar in<br>context, espec=
ially in more academic contexts. It's much easier to get<br>students =
to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on<br>worker's rig=
hts and then discuss the article as well as students'<br>experiences afterw=
ards. Students care about the topic and want to talk<br>about it. Along the=
way, they learn the correct placement of adjectives as<br>well as gr=
eat vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up within<br>the &nbs=
p;context. ...this just happens to be the approach taken on the<br>te=
xtbooks series I'm working on. I'm not endorsing it, for the record.<=
br><br><br>Best,<br><br>Terre<br><br>Teresa Lintner<br>Senior Development E=
ditor<br>Cambridge University Press<br>32 Avenue of the Americas<br>New Yor=
k, New York 10013-2473<br>Telephone: 212 337-5070<br>Fax: 212 645-5960<br>E=
mail: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><=
br><br><br><br>From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <<a href=3D"m=
ailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To: <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date=
: 12/26/2011 02:32 PM<br>Subject: Re: Spo=
ken vs. formal written English<br>Sent by: Assem=
bly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br> &nbs=
p; <<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
IO.EDU</a>><br><br><br><br>Jack,<br><br>You raise important questions or=
pedagogy and of content, questions we have<br>discussed at length on this =
forum without reaching consensus. Should<br>grammar be taught as cont=
ent? Should it be taught as an adjunct to the<br>teaching of writing?=
What you suggest is that a significant amount of<br>grammar, grammar=
that is useful to writers, can be taught in the process of<br>meeting the =
needs of developing writers. And this leads me to wonder<br>whether a=
grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce<br>grammatical=
knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it in a<br>way that m=
akes its relevance obvious. This suggests a much more<br>thorough-goi=
ng grammar in context model than we usually see in writing<br>classrooms, r=
ather, an approach that starts in early grades and<br>incorporates grammar =
into language arts activities across the board.<br><br>Not being a K12 teac=
her, I may be describing what some teachers are already<br>doing.<br><br>He=
rb<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of =
English Grammar [<br>mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATE=
[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Dixon, Jack<br>Sent: Sunday, Decemb=
er 25, 2011 6:59 AM<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG=
@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><br>Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English<=
br><br>Terre:<br><br>Thank you for your detailed response. I do want =
to check out Kate<br>Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sente=
nce frames. (Any<br>titles in particular where I should start?) I am =
familiar with "They Say,<br>I Say" and agree that it can be usefu=
l for helping students understand<br>those deeper cognitive structures that=
academic writers use - actually used<br>by more than just academics.<br><b=
r>I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. Are=
the<br>two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourse=
lf, or<br>are they published somewhere so that I could access them?<br><br>=
What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary and<br>u=
sing sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to communicate<b=
r>without putting the focus on error. So many objectives that involve=
<br>developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction.<=
br>While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomplis=
h<br>larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. In my class=
es over<br>the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English a=
t an<br>open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence imi=
tation,<br>tied with comprehension. I take sentences with some level =
of structural<br>complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will unde=
rstand when we<br>read and discuss them. I then model imitating the s=
tructure, not the<br>content; we do a few together; then, I have them write=
a few original<br>sentences which we read around the room. At the en=
d of that session, the<br>students feel they have done something important.=
<br><br>My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more gr=
ammar<br>than they think they do and that we are going to build on what the=
y know.<br>As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduc=
e them to<br>the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to th=
e ways the<br>meaning gets conveyed.<br><br>Jack<br><br><br>_______________=
_________________________<br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Gra=
mmar<br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web in=
terface at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http:=
//listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave=
the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http:=
//ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></body></html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C7EFC7FCDEMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:18:10 -0500
From: Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Hi John,
My perspective is ESL so I'm talking about using texts that are either
adapted or created to highlight certain grammatical structures. So, con=
text
in this case means a topic. In terms of academic writing, the emphasis =
is,
as you say, more on rhetorical strategies - how does the writer use
language to convey his or her ideas. Part of that analysis is studying =
the
use of language structures, the "They Say, I Say" approach. You say th=
at
you "teach prepositional phrases first and then read Hemingway..." Tha=
t's
my approach too at times for grammatical structures. It depends. I try
different ways. But for rhetorical structures, I'm more likely to have=
students recognize the structures themselves through a series of questi=
ons
("Is the writer talking about similarities or differences in the first =
body
paragraph? Underline all the words and structures the writer uses that
indicate your choice."). Then we use them in writing - much like Jack's=
activities.
You're right, John. There probably isn't a textbook that can address al=
l
the goals that you have in high school because of the "funky marriage" =
of
sound practices and high stakes testing.
By the way, I have a friend who is a principal at a New York City high
school. According to him, there is an initiative to have teachers in al=
l
subject areas teach writing, or at least to include much more writing i=
n
their subject areas. He is having a very rough time with his teachers
because they don't feel in any way prepared to work on writing. He hims=
elf
said that he receives emails and notes from teachers with all kinds of
errors in them!
I'll happily send you Kate Kinsella's presentation. In terms of vocabul=
ary,
I agree that students' eyes pass over the words and letters. I had a
conversation with one of my Gen 1.5ers on his inability to write well (=
poor
structure and limited vocabulary) despite the fact that his speaking wa=
s
fairly fluent and he was able to read and comprehend a fairly high leve=
l of
text. He explained that when he read he got the gist of what he was
reading, so although he couldn't really tell you the definition of the=
word, he could tell you generally what the idea of the sentence was. T=
hat
strategy works for comprehension, but it doesn't work for acquiring
language - vocabulary or other language structures. I realized that I
needed to get students to take a more active approach in analyzing text=
s
and using the language themselves.
Best,
Terre
Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: 01/06/2012 12:09 AM
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Hello...
I'm understanding that the=A0"grammar in context" model means finding
grammatical functions and processes that just happen to happen in a giv=
en
piece of prose, academic or otherwise. But then what? We take out a
sentence, a clause, a phrase, whatever=A0and analyze it for its grammar=
(what
other choice would we have, anyway, since we're bound to a=A0few words=A0=
at a
time when reading that way?).=A0If "context" simply means the plot, foc=
us,
theme, purpose, or audience=A0of a text, then analyzing how grammar wor=
ks
specifically to that context is really more about analyzing rhetorical
strategies (looking at bits of=A0language for what=A0they do to the lar=
ger
whole and thus to the reader/listener).=A0Looking sentence level for th=
ings
like adjectives etc=A0is looking at grammar isolated=A0- and I'm not sa=
ying
that's a bad thing.=A0We study prepositional phrases first and then rea=
d
Hemingway - and=A0it clicks. Maybe I haven't seen a successful=A0"conte=
xt"
model for the High School level... and to get back to the SAT and other=
high stakes tests, the grammar error identification=A0questions look at=
single sentences without larger rhetorical/narrative context. We'd like=
to
be able to approach many goals; carrying sound reading comprehension
strategies that consider both grammar and rhetoric and also being able =
to
pass a very cold state, board,=A0or agency test is often a funky marria=
ge for
the average student.
Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature anthologies=A0for which Kate
Kinsella happens to be a contributing author. I was fascinated by the
"Academic English Second Language" assertion, as we've had this
conversation among faculty dozens of times. Yet teachers simply go ahea=
d
and assign x number of pages to read and still wonder why students (who=
actually do pass their eyes over letters and words) come back and fail
reading check quizzes. I'd like to know more about her comments and
suggestions, especially since she writes for textbooks...
Thank you...
John
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Terre and Herb,
Herb raises some excellent questions for us to consider as we think
through how we teach grammar -- all the language arts, actually. =A0I=
think
his idea about "a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" =
is
very important. =A0I certainly agree with the idea of teaching gramma=
r in
context, but I have also observed that often "grammar in context" mea=
ns
not teaching much grammar (or language development) at all. =A0Herb's=
idea
of a more carefully thought through scope and sequence would be very
helpful -- though I recognize all the problems confronting anyone wil=
ling
to take on this onerous task. =A0We've discussed this issue numerous =
times
in one way or another on this site.
Terre's integrated approach to teaching reading, vocabulary, writing,=
and
grammar makes much sense. =A0Finding those readings that students fin=
d
relevant can certainly be a problem. =A0(I've found one on car buying=
that
my college students enjoy; the author, a former car salesman, discuss=
es
how customers are manipulated because of their ignorance.)
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Hi Herb,
Textbooks for teaching grammar to English Language Learners in second=
ary
and higher education are going in the direction of teaching grammar i=
n
context, especially in more academic contexts. =A0It's much easier to=
get
students to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on
worker's rights and then discuss the article as well as students'
experiences afterwards. Students care about the topic and want to tal=
k
about it. Along the way, they learn the =A0correct placement of adjec=
tives
as
well as great vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up wi=
thin
the =A0context. =A0...this just happens to be the approach taken on t=
he
textbooks series I'm working on. =A0I'm not endorsing it, for the rec=
ord.
Best,
Terre
Teresa Lintner
Senior Development Editor
Cambridge University Press
32 Avenue of the Americas
New York, New York 10013-2473
Telephone: 212 337-5070
Fax: 212 645-5960
Email: [log in to unmask]
From: =A0 "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: =A0 =A0 [log in to unmask]
Date: =A0 12/26/2011 02:32 PM
Subject: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Sent by: =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0<[log in to unmask]>
Jack,
You raise important questions or pedagogy and of content, questions w=
e
have
discussed at length on this forum without reaching consensus. =A0Shou=
ld
grammar be taught as content? =A0Should it be taught as an adjunct to=
the
teaching of writing? =A0What you suggest is that a significant amount=
of
grammar, grammar that is useful to writers, can be taught in the proc=
ess
of
meeting the needs of developing writers. =A0And this leads me to wond=
er
whether a grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce=
grammatical knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it i=
n a
way that makes its relevance obvious. =A0This suggests a much more
thorough-going grammar in context model than we usually see in writin=
g
classrooms, rather, an approach that starts in early grades and
incorporates grammar into language arts activities across the board.
Not being a K12 teacher, I may be describing what some teachers are
already
doing.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dixon, Jack
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 6:59 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Terre:
Thank you for your detailed response. =A0I do want to check out Kate
Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames. (An=
y
titles in particular where I should start?) =A0I am familiar with "Th=
ey
Say,
I Say" and agree that it can be useful for helping students understan=
d
those deeper cognitive structures that academic writers use - actuall=
y
used
by more than just academics.
I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. =A0Ar=
e the
two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourself=
, or
are they published somewhere so that I could access them?
What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary an=
d
using sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to
communicate
without putting the focus on error. =A0So many objectives that involv=
e
developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction=
.
While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomp=
lish
larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. =A0In my classes=
over
the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English at an
open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence
imitation,
tied with comprehension. =A0I take sentences with some level of struc=
tural
complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will understand when=
we
read and discuss them. =A0I then model imitating the structure, not t=
he
content; we do a few together; then, I have them write a few original=
sentences which we read around the room. =A0At the end of that sessio=
n, the
students feel they have done something important.
My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more gram=
mar
than they think they do and that we are going to build on what they k=
now.
As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduce the=
m to
the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to the ways =
the
meaning gets conveyed.
Jack
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and selec=
t
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:37:41 -0500
From: Teresa Lintner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQpGcm9tOiBBc3NlbWJseSBmb3IgdGhl
IFRlYWNoaW5nIG9mIEVuZ2xpc2ggR3JhbW1hcg0KVG8gam9pbiBvciBsZWF2ZSB0aGlzIExJU1RT
RVJWIGxpc3QsIHBsZWFzZSB2aXNpdCB0aGUgbGlzdCdzIHdlYiBpbnRlcmZhY2UNCmF0OiBodHRw
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biBvciBsZWF2ZQ0KdGhlIGxpc3QiDQoNCg0KVmlzaXQgQVRFRydzIHdlYiBzaXRlIGF0IGh0dHA6
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DQo=
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 10:06:55 -0500
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Marie-Pierre_Jouannaud?=
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: "They" - New 1st Pn. Genderless Singular
It's not just an American thing: here's what I found on the ATL website (=
a
British teaching union):
The Education and Inspections Act 2006 enables school staff to use "such
force as is reasonable in the circumstances to prevent a pupil from doing=
or
continuing to do" any of the following:
- causing personal injury to any person (including the pupil themselves)
- causing damage to the property of any person (including the pupil thems=
elves)
Marie
France
On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 02:55:32 +0000, helene hoover <[log in to unmask]> w=
rote:
>
>Marshall:
>=20
>Not a problem. I worked in the legal field in a previous life and only t=
he
lawyers my age and older have a problem with it.
>=20
>Helene
>=20
>
>
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:51:33 +0000
>From: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: "They" - New 1st Pn. Genderless Singular
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Grammarphiles,
>=20
>I wonder if the =93they,=94 meaning both singular and plural, and male a=
nd
female, will ever present a legal problem:
>=20
> Witness: I told the sheriff that somebody (the word
could be regarded as singular since it takes a singular verb, e.g. somebo=
dy
waits) broke into my house.
>=20
> Lawyer: Do you know who it was?
>=20
> Witness: I don=92t know but they must have had a key.
>=20
> Lawyer: Really, so there was more than one? Let me get
this straight: There was just one person or more than one? Are you sayin=
g
that my client acted with another person or persons?
>=20
>Am I stretching credulity, or do I know lawyers too well to doubt that t=
his
scenario would happen?
>=20
>Marshall
>=20
>
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
>Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 1:46 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: "They" - New 1st Pn. Genderless Singular
>=20
>
>Just in case anyone doubts that "they" is fast becoming the new default =
for
the genderless third person singular pronoun, here's an example from an
email I just received from something called "Spam Arrest":
>=20
>Thank you for verifying your email address with Spam Arrest!
>
>Your email has been forwarded to brian koepf's inbox. All of your=20
>future emails to brian koepf will also be delivered directly into=20
>their inbox.=20
>Far better, I think, than the awkward "him/her, his/hers, he/she" (which=
is
also sexist - why should the masculine precede the feminine?).=20
>=20
>Geoff Layton
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or lea=
ve
the list"=20
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV=
list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave t=
he
list"=20
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ =09=09 =09 =09=09=20=20
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfa=
ce at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 15:28:03 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
I think GENRE is a very key component of this. different structures sh=
ow up in different ways in different kinds of texts for good functional rea=
sons. My experience has been that students coming out of high school have b=
een exposed to "literary" texts in their English classes. In the state of N=
ew York, the emphasis is on "literary elements," those features of language=
that are thought of as peculiar to literature (a position that can be disp=
uted.) These texts are organized quite differently from what are normally t=
hought of as "academic texts," and they also differ quite a bit in their la=
nguage patterns. I find that students coming out of high school cannot tell=
me the difference between a story and an essay; in fact, they tend to keep=
referring to essays as "stories" just out of habit. They expect to "interp=
ret" what they read, without a strong sense that a good nonfiction text sho=
uldn't have to be subject to interpretation in the ways they are used to. I=
n other words, a good nonfiction text should make its meaning clear. Meanin=
g in a literary text is often open and implied.=0A=
It's interesting that fiction has a lexical density very similar to con=
versation. The lexical density of academic text is built around complexity =
in the noun phrases. Fiction has a much higher frequency of pronouns. Where=
as fiction tends to organize around plot (and point of view), academic text=
tends to build coherence differently, quite often by making explicit refer=
ence to the text as a text. =0A=
I work with students at the college level who will not, for the most pa=
rt, be English majors. I find that they are radically underprepared for the=
kinds of reading and writing they will be doing in college, in part becaus=
e high schools classes are so deeply organized around literature.=0A=
I agree that academic writing can be thought of as a second language fo=
r most students. Our job is to mentor them into fluency with that language,=
and we cannot do so just through poems and plays and stories.=0A=
=0A=
Craig=0A=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]
U] on behalf of Teresa Lintner [[log in to unmask]]=0A=
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 9:37 AM=0A=
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A=
=0A=
Hi Herb,=0A=
=0A=
I am always so impressed by the depth of your knowledge and passion that=0A=
you show for your work. The workshop you describe sounds absolutely=0A=
wonderful. I only wish you had the notes.=0A=
=0A=
Best,=0A=
=0A=
Terre=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Teresa Lintner=0A=
Senior Development Editor=0A=
Cambridge University Press=0A=
32 Avenue of the Americas=0A=
New York, New York 10013-2473=0A=
Telephone: 212 337-5070=0A=
Fax: 212 645-5960=0A=
Email: [log in to unmask]
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>=0A=
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: 01/06/2012 12:49 AM=0A=
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A=
Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=0A=
<[log in to unmask]>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
When I used the term =93grammar in context=94 earlier in this context, I wa=
s=0A=
intentionally using it in a broader sense that it typically has in the=0A=
literature. A number of years ago I did a summer workshop for writing=0A=
teachers in which we chose constructions and grammatical categories on the=
=0A=
basis of discourse needs. So we dealt with constructions that change focus=
=0A=
and topic, ways of foregrounding and backgrounding, etc. That led us to=0A=
talking about phrases, clauses, parts of speech, grammatical relations,=0A=
etc. always in the context of effective expression. Unfortunately, I no=0A=
longer have the notes or papers from that class, but I remember iis fondly.=
=0A=
The students, all secondary and middle writing teachers, were a very=0A=
thoughtful bunch. Of course, Martha Kolln=92s work is deservedly respected=
=0A=
for its pioneering of this sort of approach.=0A=
=0A=
In my grammar classes, I=92ve frequently used poems as objects of analysis.=
=0A=
One of my favorites, and one of the most challenging, is Sir Philip=0A=
Sidney=92s sonnet =93With how sad steps.=94=0A=
=0A=
With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb=92st the skies,=0A=
How silently, and with how wan a face!=0A=
What! May it be that even in heav=92nly place=0A=
That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?=0A=
Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes 5=0A=
Can judge of love, thou feel=92st a lover=92s case.=0A=
I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace=0A=
To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.=0A=
=0A=
Then, ev=92n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,=0A=
Is constant love deem=92d there but want of wit? 10=0A=
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?=0A=
Do they above love to be lov=92d, and yet=0A=
Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?=0A=
Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?=0A=
=0A=
Sidney is, of course, mid-sixteenth c., which means Early Modern English,=
=0A=
and that makes his language a bit of a challenge for students. As an=0A=
exercise, try grammatically analyzing the four sentences found in the last=
=0A=
six lines.=0A=
=0A=
On an old chestnut of a topic, the poem also illustrates some interesting=
=0A=
historical phenomena in the uses of =93that.=94=0A=
=0A=
Line 3: =93that=94 is a subordinating conjunction=0A=
Line 5: =93that=94 is an EME use of that to mark =93if=94 as a subordinati=
ng=0A=
construction.=0A=
Line 8: =93that=94 introduces a nonrestrictive relative clause, something=
=0A=
grammars generally tell us is wrong.=0A=
Line 13: =93that=94 functions as in line 5, supporting =93whom=94 as a=0A=
subordinator.=0A=
=0A=
But that=92s another topic.=0A=
=0A=
Herb=0A=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [=0A=
mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy=0A=
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 12:15 AM=0A=
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A=
=0A=
Hello...=0A=
=0A=
I'm understanding that the "grammar in context" model means finding=0A=
grammatical functions and processes that just happen to happen in a given=
=0A=
piece of prose, academic or otherwise. But then what? We take out a=0A=
sentence, a clause, a phrase, whatever and analyze it for its grammar (what=
=0A=
other choice would we have, anyway, since we're bound to a few words at a=
=0A=
time when reading that way?). If "context" simply means the plot, focus,=0A=
theme, purpose, or audience of a text, then analyzing how grammar works=0A=
specifically to that context is really more about analyzing rhetorical=0A=
strategies (looking at bits of language for what they do to the larger=0A=
whole and thus to the reader/listener). Looking sentence level for things=
=0A=
like adjectives etc is looking at grammar isolated - and I'm not saying=0A=
that's a bad thing. We study prepositional phrases first and then read=0A=
Hemingway - and it clicks. Maybe I haven't seen a successful "context"=0A=
model for the High School level... and to get back to the SAT and other=0A=
high stakes tests, the grammar error identification questions look at=0A=
single sentences without larger rhetorical/narrative context. We'd like to=
=0A=
be able to approach many goals; carrying sound reading comprehension=0A=
strategies that consider both grammar and rhetoric and also being able to=
=0A=
pass a very cold state, board, or agency test is often a funky marriage for=
=0A=
the average student.=0A=
=0A=
Teresa - we use Prentice Hall Literature anthologies for which Kate=0A=
Kinsella happens to be a contributing author. I was fascinated by the=0A=
"Academic English Second Language" assertion, as we've had this=0A=
conversation among faculty dozens of times. Yet teachers simply go ahead=0A=
and assign x number of pages to read and still wonder why students (who=0A=
actually do pass their eyes over letters and words) come back and fail=0A=
reading check quizzes. I'd like to know more about her comments and=0A=
suggestions, especially since she writes for textbooks...=0A=
=0A=
Thank you...=0A=
=0A=
John=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 1:49 PM, Dixon, Jack <[log in to unmask]>=0A=
wrote:=0A=
Terre and Herb,=0A=
=0A=
Herb raises some excellent questions for us to consider as we think through=
=0A=
how we teach grammar -- all the language arts, actually. I think his idea=
=0A=
about "a much more thorough-going grammar in context model" is very=0A=
important. I certainly agree with the idea of teaching grammar in context,=
=0A=
but I have also observed that often "grammar in context" means not teaching=
=0A=
much grammar (or language development) at all. Herb's idea of a more=0A=
carefully thought through scope and sequence would be very helpful --=0A=
though I recognize all the problems confronting anyone willing to take on=
=0A=
this onerous task. We've discussed this issue numerous times in one way or=
=0A=
another on this site.=0A=
=0A=
Terre's integrated approach to teaching reading, vocabulary, writing, and=
=0A=
grammar makes much sense. Finding those readings that students find=0A=
relevant can certainly be a problem. (I've found one on car buying that my=
=0A=
college students enjoy; the author, a former car salesman, discusses how=0A=
customers are manipulated because of their ignorance.)=0A=
=0A=
Jack=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
-----Original Message-----=0A=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:=0A=
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Teresa Lintner=0A=
Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2012 11:59 AM=0A=
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A=
=0A=
Hi Herb,=0A=
=0A=
Textbooks for teaching grammar to English Language Learners in secondary=0A=
and higher education are going in the direction of teaching grammar in=0A=
context, especially in more academic contexts. It's much easier to get=0A=
students to use adjectives, say, if you start off with an article on=0A=
worker's rights and then discuss the article as well as students'=0A=
experiences afterwards. Students care about the topic and want to talk=0A=
about it. Along the way, they learn the correct placement of adjectives as=
=0A=
well as great vocabulary and other grammar that happens to crop up within=
=0A=
the context. ...this just happens to be the approach taken on the=0A=
textbooks series I'm working on. I'm not endorsing it, for the record.=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Best,=0A=
=0A=
Terre=0A=
=0A=
Teresa Lintner=0A=
Senior Development Editor=0A=
Cambridge University Press=0A=
32 Avenue of the Americas=0A=
New York, New York 10013-2473=0A=
Telephone: 212 337-5070=0A=
Fax: 212 645-5960=0A=
Email: [log in to unmask]
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>=0A=
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: 12/26/2011 02:32 PM=0A=
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A=
Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=0A=
<[log in to unmask]>=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Jack,=0A=
=0A=
You raise important questions or pedagogy and of content, questions we have=
=0A=
discussed at length on this forum without reaching consensus. Should=0A=
grammar be taught as content? Should it be taught as an adjunct to the=0A=
teaching of writing? What you suggest is that a significant amount of=0A=
grammar, grammar that is useful to writers, can be taught in the process of=
=0A=
meeting the needs of developing writers. And this leads me to wonder=0A=
whether a grammar in context approach might not be a way to introduce=0A=
grammatical knowledge that we all think is useful and presenting it in a=0A=
way that makes its relevance obvious. This suggests a much more=0A=
thorough-going grammar in context model than we usually see in writing=0A=
classrooms, rather, an approach that starts in early grades and=0A=
incorporates grammar into language arts activities across the board.=0A=
=0A=
Not being a K12 teacher, I may be describing what some teachers are already=
=0A=
doing.=0A=
=0A=
Herb=0A=
=0A=
-----Original Message-----=0A=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [=0A=
mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dixon, Jack=0A=
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 6:59 AM=0A=
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A=
=0A=
Terre:=0A=
=0A=
Thank you for your detailed response. I do want to check out Kate=0A=
Kinsella's work in using academic vocabulary and sentence frames. (Any=0A=
titles in particular where I should start?) I am familiar with "They Say,=
=0A=
I Say" and agree that it can be useful for helping students understand=0A=
those deeper cognitive structures that academic writers use - actually used=
=0A=
by more than just academics.=0A=
=0A=
I would like a copy of your rubric if you are willing to share. Are the=0A=
two essays you use pieces that you have collected or written yourself, or=
=0A=
are they published somewhere so that I could access them?=0A=
=0A=
What I like about your strategies for teaching academic vocabulary and=0A=
using sentence frames is that you are teaching students how to communicate=
=0A=
without putting the focus on error. So many objectives that involve=0A=
developing language proficiency involve error avoidance or correction.=0A=
While correcting errors is important, teaching students how to accomplish=
=0A=
larger rhetorical goals seems more productive to me. In my classes over=0A=
the last few years (developmental writing and freshman English at an=0A=
open-admissions community college), I have worked with sentence imitation,=
=0A=
tied with comprehension. I take sentences with some level of structural=0A=
complexity that I can be fairly sure my students will understand when we=0A=
read and discuss them. I then model imitating the structure, not the=0A=
content; we do a few together; then, I have them write a few original=0A=
sentences which we read around the room. At the end of that session, the=
=0A=
students feel they have done something important.=0A=
=0A=
My underlying goal is to show them that, in fact, they know more grammar=0A=
than they think they do and that we are going to build on what they know.=
=0A=
As we discuss how any given structure works, I begin to introduce them to=
=0A=
the concepts of phrases, clauses, punctuation - all tied to the ways the=0A=
meaning gets conveyed.=0A=
=0A=
Jack=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=0A=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=
=0A=
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
=0A=
the list"=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface=
=0A=
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
=0A=
the list"=0A=
=0A=
=0A=
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
=0A=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 09:06:08 -0800
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: An old chestnut of a topic
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:18:22 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An old chestnut of a topic
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Great poem, Herb. I hadn't encountered it before. To add to your list,
there's also a demonstrative modifier "that" in line 4 ("that busy archer,"
presumably Cupid).
Bruce, your analysis of line 5 gives food for thought, but does it provide
a reading that works with the rest of the poem? If "that" in line 5 is a
demonstrative pronoun, what is its referent? What is the "kind of thing"
that the moon's eyes are judging?
With Herb's analysis ("if that" =3D "if" in Early Modern English), then lin=
es
5-6 might paraphrase as "Certainly, if eyes like yours (that have been so
long acquainted with love) can recognize/understand love, then you can
empathize with a lover's plight."
I am not sure of the reading of the next two lines. My stab at paraphrase:
"I read it (i.e., your empathy) in your looks: your languished grace to
(i.e., empathy with) me--who feels the same way--reveals your emotions."
The poem is a challenge for modern readers, as Herb said, and I'd welcome
hearing from others with readings more perceptive than my own.
Adding to the challenge is punctuation. I looked at a few different
versions on the Internet, and they differ. Some have it "long with
love-acquainted eyes" rather than "long-with-love-acquainted eyes." This
presumably makes "eyes" the object of the preposition "with" and changes
the reading significantly, but what then is the subject of the verb
"judge"? Some have a semicolon rather than a comma in line 6, which I think
makes sense.
Dick
On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Herb,
>
> I think I can concur with you on the analysis of lines 3 and 8, but the
> "that" in 5 and 13 look so much like demonstratives.
> In 5 there is no direct object of judge, so can't it be serving that
> function? "Judge that kind of thing of love"
> In 13, can it not be speaking of "that kind of love"?
>
> Bruce
>
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
> Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:57:09 -0500
>
> In my grammar classes, I=92ve frequently used poems as objects of
> analysis. One of my favorites, and one of the most challenging, is Sir
> Philip Sidney=92s sonnet =93With how sad steps.=94
>
>
>
> With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb=92st the skies,
>
> How silently, and with how wan a face!
>
> What! May it be that even in heav=92nly place
>
> That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
>
> Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes 5
>
> Can judge of love, thou feel=92st a lover=92s case.
>
> I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
>
> To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
>
>
>
> Then, ev=92n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
>
> Is constant love deem=92d there but want of wit? 10
>
> Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
>
> Do they above love to be lov=92d, and yet
>
> Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
>
> Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
>
>
>
> Sidney is, of course, mid-sixteenth c., which means Early Modern English,
> and that makes his language a bit of a challenge for students. As an
> exercise, try grammatically analyzing the four sentences found in the las=
t
> six lines.
>
>
>
> On an old chestnut of a topic, the poem also illustrates some interesting
> historical phenomena in the uses of =93that.=94
>
>
>
> Line 3: =93that=94 is a subordinating conjunction
>
> Line 5: =93that=94 is an EME use of that to mark =93if=94 as a subordina=
ting
> construction.
>
> Line 8: =93that=94 introduces a nonrestrictive relative clause, somethin=
g
> grammars generally tell us is wrong.
>
> Line 13: =93that=94 functions as in line 5, supporting =93whom=94 as a
> subordinator.
>
>
>
> But that=92s another topic.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
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--f46d0442720a8a262504b5e0e9b8
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Great poem, Herb. I hadn't encountered it before. To add to your list, =
there's also a demonstrative modifier "that" in line 4 ("=
;that busy archer," presumably Cupid).<br><br>Bruce, your analysis of =
line 5 gives food for thought, but does it provide a reading that works wit=
h the rest of the poem? If "that" in line 5 is a demonstrative pr=
onoun, what is its referent? What is the "kind of thing" that the=
moon's eyes are judging?<br>
<br>With Herb's analysis ("if that" =3D "if" in Ear=
ly Modern English), then lines 5-6 might paraphrase as "Certainly, if =
eyes like yours (that have been so long acquainted with love) can recognize=
/understand love, then you can empathize with a lover's plight."<b=
r>
<br>I am not sure of the reading of the next two lines. My stab at paraphra=
se: "I read it (i.e., your empathy) in your looks: your languished gra=
ce to (i.e., empathy with) me--who feels the same way--reveals your emotion=
s." The poem is a challenge for modern readers, as Herb said, and I=
9;d welcome hearing from others with readings more perceptive than my own.<=
br>
<br>Adding to the challenge is punctuation. I looked at a few different ver=
sions on the Internet, and they differ. Some have it "long with love-a=
cquainted eyes" rather than "long-with-love-acquainted eyes."=
; This presumably makes "eyes" the object of the preposition &quo=
t;with" and changes the reading significantly, but what then is the su=
bject of the verb "judge"? Some have a semicolon rather than a co=
mma in line 6, which I think makes sense.<br>
<br>=A0Dick<br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12=
:06 PM, Bruce Despain <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bdespain@digi=
s.net">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">
<div style=3D"font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Herb,</di=
v>
<div>=A0</div>
<div>I think I can concur with you on the analysis of lines 3 and 8, but th=
e "that" in 5 and 13 look so much like demonstratives.=A0 </div>
<div>In 5 there is no direct object of judge, so can't it be serving th=
at function?=A0 "Judge that kind of thing of love" <br>In 13, can=
it not be speaking of "that kind of love"?=A0 <br><br></div></di=
v>
</blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div></div>
<div>Bruce</div>
<div><br>--- <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">hstahlke=
@BSU.EDU</a> wrote:<br><br>From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <<a href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>=
To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@LIST=
SERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><br>
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English<br>Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:=
57:09 -0500<br><br></div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:=
#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">In my grammar classes, I=92ve frequently used poems=
as objects of analysis.=A0 One of my favorites, and one of the most challe=
nging, is Sir Philip Sidney=92s sonnet =93With how sad steps.=94</span></p>
</div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:=
#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span>=A0</p></div>
<p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">With ho=
w sad steps, O Moon, thou climb=92st the skies,</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">How=
silently, and with how wan a face!</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Wha=
t!=A0 May it be that even in heav=92nly place</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Tha=
t busy archer his sharp arrows tries?</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Sur=
e, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 5</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Can=
judge of love, thou feel=92st a lover=92s case.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">I r=
ead it in thy looks, thy languisht grace</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">To =
me, that feel the like, thy state descries.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'"></s=
pan>=A0
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">The=
n, ev=92n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Is =
constant love deem=92d there but want of wit?=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=
=A0=A0=A0 10</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Are=
beauties there as proud as here they be?</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Do =
they above love to be lov=92d, and yet</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Tho=
se lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif'">Do =
they call virtue there ungratefulness?</span><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:=
9;Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d"></span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span>=A0
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Sidney is, of course, mid-sixteenth c., which m=
eans Early Modern English, and that makes his language a bit of a challenge=
for students.=A0 As an exercise, try grammatically analyzing the four sent=
ences found in the last six lines.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span>=A0
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">On an old chestnut of a topic, the poem also il=
lustrates some interesting historical phenomena in the uses of =93that.=94=
=A0 </span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span>=A0
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Line 3:=A0 =93that=94 is a subordinating conjun=
ction</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Line 5:=A0 =93that=94 is an EME use of that to =
mark =93if=94 as a subordinating construction.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Line 8:=A0 =93that=94 introduces a nonrestricti=
ve relative clause, something grammars generally tell us is wrong.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Line 13:=A0 =93that=94 functions as in line 5, =
supporting =93whom=94 as a subordinator.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span>=A0
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">But that=92s another topic.</span>
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"></span>=A0
</p><p><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';CO=
LOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Herb</span>
</p><br></blockquote></div>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--f46d0442720a8a262504b5e0e9b8--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 12:25:33 -0800
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An old chestnut of a topic
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 23:38:02 -0500
From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: An old chestnut of a topic
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C7EFC8005EMAILBACKEND0_
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End of ATEG Digest - 5 Jan 2012 to 6 Jan 2012 (#2012-6)
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