Dick,
   There are approaches to grammar that have a very direct carryover to
writing. The question, I guess, would not be the structures that they
have internalized, but the ways in which those structures participate
within discourse. >
   I don't want to disagree with your approaches to teaching grammar, but
think it's problematic to imply that there is little role for grammar
in a writing course (or writing in a grammar course.)
   To me, it's like saying that there's no connection between diet and
health. There is, but you have to ask the right questions. You have to
look for it. If grammar is seen from the start as disconnected from
discourse, you will never make the connections.

Craig
I make extensive use of tree diagrams in my college course in grammar.
> For about 90% of my students, the diagrams work well in enabling them to
> visualize and gain insight into the structure of the language. The other
> 10% struggle to get beyond seeing a bunch of lines and words on the
> page. They might do better in a different kind of class, although most
> of them do pass the course.
>
>
>
> The class I teach is a course in grammar per se, designed to help
> students discover (with their conscious minds) the structure of the
> grammar that they have internalized (with their unconscious minds). I
> don't claim for it any goal or benefit other than for them to gain
> insights about their language and about how their minds work. A few
> students have told me that the course has helped them in their writing,
> but I make no claims that it will improve writing skills, and when
> students tell me that is their goal, I suggest they take a writing
> course instead, which will have more immediate benefits.
>
>
>
> I love grammar and believe it is important for its own sake. I support
> its being taught at all levels. I am also a writing teacher and know
> that writing is not the same thing as grammar. I'd be very wary about
> spending much if any time on diagrams in a course intended to teach
> composition. It might have some benefit for a few students whose minds
> work in a certain way, but most composition students gain far more from
> instruction and practice in writing.
>
>
>
> Dick Veit
>
> UNCW English Department
>
>
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