Marshall,
My guess is that it would be the same thing. These constructions have generally been treated as substituting the past participle form for the past tense, which has happened pretty often in English. But that usually happens only in strong forms that don't end in -en, like fight/fought, not in strong forms that end in -en, like "seen" and "taken". That's why I lean towards treating it as a "'ve"
weakened to nothing by lenition.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Myers, Marshall
Sent: Thu 4/27/2006 4:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FW: conjunction or preposition
Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
> That quotative development is another interesting wrinkle. A lot of
> grammatical and lexical change takes place on the basis of metaphor,
> that is, speakers trying to be more expressive. But then the more
> expressive expression becomes hackneyed and that gradually wears down
> to almost nothing. Take English "have", which meant "possess, hold"
> in OE but has become a perfect auxiliary with for nearly all speakers
> reduces to schwa, as in "woulda" and for some speakers simply drops
> out as in the non-standard perfect aspect "I seen him".
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>
>
> Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
>
> Marshall,
>
>
>
> Synchronically, I'd argue that there's a register difference, as you
> suggest, between A and B and that "as" and "like" are both
> subordinators. In C, "the way" is the head noun modified by an
> asyndetic relative clause, that is, a clause that doesn't start with
> "that" or one of the wh-relative words. Functionally, "the way" may
> be on its way to becoming a subordinator in its own right, but I don't
> think it's shifted that far yet.
>
>
>
> Diachronically it gets interesting because "like" comes from Old
> English "lic", which meant "body". We derive both "like" and the
> suffix -ly from "lic." That is, a noun has gradually morphed into a
> /conjunction/preposition and into a suffix. "The way" is acting as if
> it's at the beginning of such a change. That suggests that at some
> time, and, perhaps, for some speakers already, "the way" has ceased to
> be an ordinary noun phrase.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Fellow Grammarians,
>
> Let me ask about a related subject. Look at the following
> constructions. I consider them to be paraphrases of each other.
> Granted, the first is probably more acceptable in academic English,
> the second is more conversational (some of you may remember the
> Winston cigarette commercial: "Winston tastes good like a cigarette
> should. It may be bad grammar, but it's great taste."). The third, I'm
> not sure about.
>
> I see the first as using "as" as a subordinator. In the second, I see
> "like" also as a subordinator. What I am not sure about is the third
> one. Is "the way" acting as a subordinator? They all seem to have the
> same structure, but do they?
>
> A. He thinks as I do.
> B. He thinks like I do.
> C. He thinks the way I do.
>
> Marshall
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> Herb,
>
> Thanks for your quick and learned reply.
>
> Isn't "like" also being used as a quotative as in the following sentence?
>
> I saw him on the corner, and I
> said, 'Like, what are you doing here,' and he says,
> 'Like, I'm waiting for Mary.'
>
> Marshall
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
Herb,
I'm located in eastern Kentucky. I grew up near Louisville. I want to
ask you about another situation. Based on what you said about "I seen,"
I wonder if that same line of logic would explain "I taken"? It is a
common verb choice in speakers I grew up with and here.
Thanks,
Marshall
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
