Bruce,
I'd thought about this issue as well--something that I don't think is mentioned in most grammar handbooks that bother to even bring up whether to use an apostrophe with 'words as words'. This category is comprised of at least two somewhat-different uses of words. As you point out, sometimes a word retains its meaning (as with 'whys and wherefores'). It's still an odd pluralization and the term is calling attention to word choice, not just semantics. It's almost a hybrid--part 'word as word' and partly (mainly?) referring to the idea of a 'why' and 'wherefore'.
But then there is another category of a 'word as word' where really you could put in any word without greatly changing the meaning of the overall sentence (as in "You used 12 'maybes' in your last sentence."). This category to me is a 'pure' form of 'using a word as a word' (I could have replaced 'maybes' with 'trumpets' and the larger point of the sentence is the same). This sort of plural seems to be easier to accept without a plural-apostrophe than the other sub-category, which one could reasonably argue is not even in the same league as this second instance.
Due to unusual circumstances, I'm limited to the amount of space I can devote to this particular discussion in our new edition. My present draft does little more than acknowledge that there is more than one category of 'word as a word' but that most handbooks and style guides do not acknowledge this--treating them all the same. I qualify the 'safe approach' of avoiding the apostrophe by also saying that if the result seems highly awkward, try to determine if your readers would be accept the plural-apostrophe, which is what I think Dick was saying as well.
larry
____________________________
Larry Beason, Associate Professor
Director of Composition
University of South Alabama
Mobile, AL 36688-0002
Office: 251-460-7861
FAX: 251-461-1517
>>> Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> 1/17/2012 8:46 AM >>>
Larry,
I have a problem with the phrase, "whys and wherefores," (and also "do's and don'ts) which does not seem to be using the words as citation forms. They are still referring to concepts in the real world, and not for the symbols used in their normal fashion to do that referring. These words seem to have acquired meanings in this use as nouns, but are still not used as names for the specific wh-words in question. It seems if I forget about the why's, I am forgetting about the words, not their meanings. The word "pi" has only one meaning in mathematics, so we don't normally have two versions of pi. Two instances of the Greek letter would be "two pi's." But are two versions of what that letter stands for still "two pi's"? My sensibilities seem to be telling me to reword it as "two versions of pi." Most of our English letters have names so that we can speak normally of "wyes" and "zees" rather than "y's" and "z's." The mixing of reference to symbols and formal entities with their normal reference in the real world seems to be a common problem in English and in philosophy in general. I think rewording could be helpful in many instances.
Bruce Despain
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: plural "words as words"
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:07:37 -0500
No problem at all.
Dick
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
That's a really good example--the pi's in particular. Not sure if I have room given some pagination limits I'm already at, but do you mind if I use your example?
larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> 01/16/12 4:13 PM >>>
Larry,
The rule of thumb I follow is to avoid apostrophes for plurals of words and
numbers, except when they are needed for ease of reading. Hence: "They
issued a long list of do's and don'ts." The plural of "don't" does not need
an apostrophe for easy reading, but the plural of "do" does. Similarly,
"There were two pi's and three omegas in the fraternity names." People
would have difficulty reading about dos and pis, so they get apostrophes.
So, in this case, pragmatism trumps a hard-and-fast rule.
Dick
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> I'm revising a chapter in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to Grammar &
> Usage) in terms of how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals. As
> you probably know, the style guides (MLA and APA in particular) aren't
> always in agreement, although most grammar texts prohibit the plural
> apostrophe in cases where they've tolerated them before.
>
> The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used as words'. Thus,
> it seems most grammar books and style guides want us to use"Forget about
> all the whys and wherefores" rather than "Forget about all the why's and
> wherefore's". Seems awkward to me, though my personal opinion doesn't
> count much.
>
> I'm curious as to whether you agree with this prohibition--or if you find
> current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as words?
>
> Larry Beason
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director
> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama
> Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
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