So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did
"next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
>
>
>
> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for
> "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes
> all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
> "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
> don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>
> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>
> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
> about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
> however hyperbolic that might be.
>
> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
> prominence.
>
> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
> my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>
> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree
> that "last" has some of its history intact.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>
>>
>
>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>
>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
>
>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>
>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>
>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>
>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>
>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>
>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>> out.
>
>>
>
>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>
>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>
>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>
>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>
>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>
>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>
>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
>
>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>> castoffs.
>
>>
>
>> Herb
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>
>
>> Herb,
>
>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
>
>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
>
>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
>
>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>
>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>
>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>
>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>
>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
>
>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>
>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>
>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>
>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>
>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>
>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>
>> "before she left for Paris."
>
>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>
>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>
>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> Craig,
>
>>>
>
>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>
>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>
>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>
>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>
>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
>>>
>
>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>
>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>
>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>
>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>
>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>
>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>
>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>
>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>
>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>
>>> other lexical categories.
>
>>>
>
>>> Herb
>
>>>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>>
>
>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>
>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>
>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>
>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>
>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>
>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>
>>> reference) is the last one.
>
>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>
>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>
>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>
>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>
>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>
>>> forever."
>
>>>
>
>>> Craig>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>
>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>
>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>
>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>
>>>> has yet to be created.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>
>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>
>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>
>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>
>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> tj
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>
>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>
>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>> following?:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>
>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>
>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>
>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Thank you,
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>
>>>>>
>
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>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>>>
>
>>>>
>
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>>>>
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