In general I find most tests of the SAT variety to be adequate. I do think
that
the sentence cited is stylistically flawed to the extent that I doubt that
the author
could have passed the Junior English theme examination at my first school
(MSC)--that sentence would have been a complete 'no-no.'
Scott Catledge
--------------------------------------------------
From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 12:00 AM
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Dec 2011 to 20 Dec 2011 (#2011-224)
> There are 15 messages totalling 2394 lines in this issue.
>
> Topics of the day:
>
> 1. SAT question (10)
> 2. Call for Paper Proposals-- College English
> 3. "textspeak" and grammar rules
> 4. Spoken vs. formal written English (3)
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:30:50 -0500
> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: SAT question
>
> --bcaec548a475ee566604b486e96a
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but I'd
> like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:
>
> According to (*a *) *their* high school basketball coach, (*b *)
> *although*Beth and her sisters worked
>
> equally hard in practice, Beth (*c *) *tended to** *outperform them both
> (*d
> *) *during* games. (*e) **No error*
> **
> **My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the following
> logic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked
> equally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> games" should established by "although" between them. However, "although"
> is misplaced since "According to their high school basketball coach"
> doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in
> practice". I can see how both clauses might work to modify "Beth tended to
> outperform them both during games," but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe
> not
> necessarily grammatically flawed, but awkward.
> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students
> disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.
> Thanks as always...
>
> John
>
>
>
> --
> John Chorazy
> English III Honors and Academic
> Pequannock Township High School
> 973.616.6000
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --bcaec548a475ee566604b486e96a
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <br clear=3D"all">
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"LINE-=
> HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE=
> :12pt" lang=3D"EN">Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its
> methods=
> may vary, but I'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular
> questio=
> n:</span></div>
>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"LINE-=
> HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE=
> :12pt" lang=3D"EN"></span>=A0</div>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"LINE-=
> HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE=
> :12pt" lang=3D"EN">According to <span><label>(<span><u>a
> </u></span></label=
>>) </span><strong><u>their</u></strong></span> high school basketball
>>coach=
> , <span><label>(<span><u>b </u></span></label>)
> </span><strong><u>although<=
> /u></strong> Beth and her sisters worked </div>
>
> <p style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"LINE-HE=
> IGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE:1=
> 2pt" lang=3D"EN"></span></p>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
> style=3D"LINE-=
> HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE=
> :12pt" lang=3D"EN">equally hard in practice, Beth <span><label>(<span><u>c
> =
> </u></span></label>) </span><strong><u>tended to</u></strong></span><u>
> </u=
>>outperform them both <span><label>(<span><u>d </u></span></label>)
>></span>=
> <strong><u>during</u></strong> games. <span><label><span
> style=3D"LINE-HEIG=
> HT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE:12p=
> t" lang=3D"EN">(<span><u>e) </u></span></span></label></span><strong><u>No
> =
> error</u></strong></div>
>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span
> style=3D=
> "LINE-HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FON=
> T-SIZE:12pt" lang=3D"EN"><strong><u></u></strong></span></span>=A0</div>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><span
> style=3D=
> "LINE-HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FON=
> T-SIZE:12pt" lang=3D"EN"><strong><u></u></strong></span>My11th graders
> deci=
> ded that b is the correct answer with the following logic - the
> relationshi=
> p between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in
> pra=
> ctice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> games"=
> ;=A0should established by "although" between them. However,
> "=
> ;although" is misplaced since "According to their high school
> bas=
> ketball coach" doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters
> =
> worked equally hard in practice". I can see how both=A0clauses might
> w=
> ork to modify "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> games,"=
> but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily grammatically
> flaw=
> ed, but awkward.</span></div>
>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>SAT suggests
> t=
> hat (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students disagree. I'd
> app=
> reciate your thoughts and comments.</span></div>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt" class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>Thanks as
> alwa=
> ys...</span></div>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt"
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><span></span>=A0</di=
> v>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt"
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>John</span></d=
> iv>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt"
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><span></span>=A0</di=
> v>
> <div style=3D"MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt"
> class=3D"MsoNormal"><span></span>=A0</di=
> v><br>-- <br>
> <div>John Chorazy</div>
> <div>English III Honors and Academic</div>
> <div>Pequannock Township High School</div>
> <div>973.616.6000</div><br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --bcaec548a475ee566604b486e96a--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:59:25 +0000
> From: Melinda Schwenk-Borrell <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> ------=_Part_1442102_382254738.1324393165646
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>
> If I were to "re-write" that sentence, I would get the strongest noun who
> i=
> s doing something -- the coach -- to be the sentence subject:=20
>
>
>
> Although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard during practice, their
> hi=
> gh school basketball coach=C2=A0found=C2=A0that Beth was the best player
> du=
> ring games.=20
>
>
>
> It's the coache's discernment that is doing the acting in this busy
> sentenc=
> e!=20
>
>
>
> The SAT question itself is horrible -- no two ways about it!=C2=A0 What is
> =
> wrong depends upon what the student chooses to fix, but the sentence as it
> =
> is written is ungrammatical.=20
>
>
>
> Melinda Borrell=20
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>
> From: "John Chorazy" <[log in to unmask]>=20
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 9:30:50 AM=20
> Subject: SAT question=20
>
>
>
> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but I'd
> =
> like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:=20
> =C2=A0=20
> According to ( a ) their high school basketball coach, ( b ) although Beth
> =
> and her sisters worked=20
>
>
> equally hard in practice, Beth ( c ) tended to outperform them both ( d )
> d=
> uring games. ( e) No error=20
> =C2=A0=20
> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the following
> logi=
> c - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked
> equal=
> ly hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> games"=
> =C2=A0should established by "although" between them. However, "although"
> is=
> misplaced since "According to their high school basketball coach" doesn't
> =
> modify "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in practice". I
> c=
> an see how both=C2=A0clauses might work to modify "Beth tended to
> outperfor=
> m them both during games," but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe not
> necessar=
> ily grammatically flawed, but awkward.=20
> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students
> disagre=
> e. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.=20
> Thanks as always...=20
> =C2=A0=20
> John=20
> =C2=A0=20
> =C2=A0=20
> --=20
>
> John Chorazy=20
> English III Honors and Academic=20
> Pequannock Township High School=20
> 973.616.6000=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave=
> the list"=20
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> ------=_Part_1442102_382254738.1324393165646
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin:
> 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt;
> color: #000000'><P>If I were to "re-write" that sentence, I would get the
> strongest noun who is doing something -- the coach -- to be the sentence
> subject:</P>
> <P> </P>
> <P>Although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard during practice,
> their high school basketball coach found that Beth was the best
> player during games.</P>
> <P> </P>
> <P>It's the coache's discernment that is doing the acting in this busy
> sentence!</P>
> <P> </P>
> <P>The SAT question itself is horrible -- no two ways about it! What
> is wrong depends upon what the student chooses to fix, but the sentence as
> it is written is ungrammatical.</P>
> <P> </P>
> <P>Melinda Borrell<BR><BR></P>
> <P>
> <HR id=zwchr>
> </P>
> <P><B>From: </B>"John Chorazy"
> <[log in to unmask]><BR><B>To:
> </B>[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Sent: </B>Tuesday, December 20, 2011
> 9:30:50 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>SAT question<BR><BR><BR clear=all></P>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN>Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its
> methods may vary, but I'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular
> question:</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN>According to <SPAN><LABEL>(<SPAN><U>a
> </U></SPAN></LABEL>) </SPAN><STRONG><U>their</U></STRONG></SPAN> high
> school basketball coach, <SPAN><LABEL>(<SPAN><U>b </U></SPAN></LABEL>)
> </SPAN><STRONG><U>although</U></STRONG> Beth and her sisters worked </DIV>
> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT:
> 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang=EN></SPAN></P>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN>equally hard in practice, Beth
> <SPAN><LABEL>(<SPAN><U>c </U></SPAN></LABEL>) </SPAN><STRONG><U>tended
> to</U></STRONG></SPAN><U> </U>outperform them both
> <SPAN><LABEL>(<SPAN><U>d </U></SPAN></LABEL>)
> </SPAN><STRONG><U>during</U></STRONG> games. <SPAN><LABEL><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN>(<SPAN><U>e)
> </U></SPAN></SPAN></LABEL></SPAN><STRONG><U>No error</U></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang=EN><STRONG><U></U></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN><SPAN
> style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif';
> FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang=EN><STRONG><U></U></STRONG></SPAN>My11th graders
> decided that b is the correct answer with the following logic - the
> relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked equally hard
> in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> games" should established by "although" between them. However,
> "although" is misplaced since "According to their high school basketball
> coach" doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard
> in practice". I can see how both clauses might work to modify "Beth
> tended to outperform them both during games," but it's an awkward
> sentence. Maybe not necessarily grammatically flawed, but
> awkward.</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN>SAT suggests that
> (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students disagree. I'd appreciate
> your thoughts and comments.</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN>Thanks as
> always...</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"
> class=MsoNormal><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN>John</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"
> class=MsoNormal><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"
> class=MsoNormal><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR>-- <BR>
> <DIV>John Chorazy</DIV>
> <DIV>English III Honors and Academic</DIV>
> <DIV>Pequannock Township High School</DIV>
> <DIV>973.616.6000</DIV><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> the list"
> <P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </P></div></body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> ------=_Part_1442102_382254738.1324393165646--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:21:25 -0800
> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> <DIV style="font-family:Verdana, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><DIV>I agree
> that it is awkward. My take is that the two adverbial clauses are
> considered to be of different ranks. The first clause of
> justification likes to be in the outer layer, so to say, as it makes
> implicit reference to the opinion of the author. The second
> clause of concession would like to be there too, but it makes a more
> objective observation. I think piling on adverbial clauses as
> sentence modification is always a bit (f) <STRONG>Awkward!</STRONG>
> I would probably prefer to make the clause of justification parenthetical,
> as it often is. </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Although Beth and her sisters, according to their high school
> basketball coach, worked equally hard in practice, Beth tended to
> outperform them both during games. </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>However, putting it inside makes it justify the
> main assertion only: </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in practice,
> according to their high school basketball coach, Beth tended to outperform
> them both during games.</DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>This means that spltting it up is probably best (changing the
> concessive to an adversative): </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>According to their high school basketball coach, Beth and her
> sisters worked equally hard in practice, but Beth tended to outperform
> them both during games. </DIV>
> <DIV> </DIV>
> <DIV>Bruce Despain</DIV>
> <DIV><BR>--- [log in to unmask] wrote:<BR><BR>From: John Chorazy
> <[log in to unmask]><BR>To:
> [log in to unmask]<BR>Subject: SAT question<BR>Date: Tue, 20 Dec
> 2011 09:30:50 -0500<BR><BR><BR></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN">Good
> morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but I'd like
> to ask your thoughts on this particular question:</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang="EN"></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang="EN">According to <SPAN>(<SPAN><U>a </U></SPAN>)
> </SPAN><STRONG><U>their</U></STRONG></SPAN> high school basketball coach,
> <SPAN>(<SPAN><U>b </U></SPAN>) </SPAN><STRONG><U>although</U></STRONG>
> Beth and her sisters worked </DIV>
> <P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang="EN"></SPAN></P></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN">equally
> hard in practice, Beth <SPAN>(<SPAN><U>c </U></SPAN>)
> </SPAN><STRONG><U>tended to</U></STRONG></SPAN><U> </U>outperform them
> both <SPAN>(<SPAN><U>d </U></SPAN>) </SPAN><STRONG><U>during</U></STRONG>
> games. <SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New
> Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt" lang="EN">(<SPAN><U>e)
> </U></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><STRONG><U>No error</U></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang="EN"><STRONG><U></U></STRONG></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%;
> FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
> lang="EN"><STRONG><U></U></STRONG></SPAN>My11th graders decided that b is
> the correct answer with the following logic - the relationship between the
> clauses "Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in practice" and "Beth
> tended to outperform them both during games" should established by
> "although" between them. However, "although" is misplaced since "According
> to their high school basketball coach" doesn't modify "although Beth and
> her sisters worked equally hard in practice". I can see how
> both clauses might work to modify "Beth tended to outperform them
> both during games," but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily
> grammatically flawed, but awkward.</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN>SAT suggests that (e), no error,
> is the correct answer. My students disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts
> and comments.</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN>Thanks as always...</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN>John</SPAN></DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
> <DIV style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt"><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><BR>-- <BR>
> <DIV>John Chorazy</DIV>
> <DIV>English III Honors and Academic</DIV>
> <DIV>Pequannock Township High School</DIV>
> <DIV>973.616.6000</DIV><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
> the list"
> <DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </DIV>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:21:57 -0500
> From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Call for Paper Proposals-- College English
>
> U29ycnksIGV2ZXJ5b25lLiBJIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGUgdGV4dCB3YXMgZ2FyYmxlZC4g
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:18:38 -0800
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> I'm going to defend the SAT here, on several levels. First, I agree with =
> the SAT writers. There's no error in this sentence. In terms of =
> pedagogy, I see several issues:
>
> 1. Your students have an overly simplistic notion of modification. I =
> doubt they really believe that modifiers always must modify what comes =
> immediately to their left. Perhaps they are over-generalizing from =
> instances of so-called squinting modifiers, where the modifier might =
> apply either to the clause to the left or to the one to the right. =
> Merely being adjacent to something, however, doesn't necessarily create =
> an ambiguity. There needs to be a plausible semantic situation where the =
> modification could make sense, and in this case, there isn't one. I =
> often notice students who have been taught about grammatical ambiguity =
> tend to over-generalize and tend to claim ambiguity based on mere =
> proximity rather than any sensible interpretive issue.
>
> 2. Your students are focused on a single word, "although" and saying =
> that it's misplaced, but if, hypothetically, we accept this as an error, =
> it's the entire subordinate clause that would be misplaced, not a single =
> word. On a purely pragmatic level of SAT strategy, this CANNOT be the =
> error, as the rules of the game clearly state that any error will be =
> entirely confined to the underlined choice, meaning that there must =
> exist a fix for the problem that can be executed only by changing that =
> one part. Moving the whole clause is disallowed under the rules of the =
> game. More importantly, that your students are focused on the word shows =
> they are thinking of grammatical relationships only on the level of =
> individual words, but it's very important to stress that many =
> relationships exist at higher levels--phrases and clauses. Grammar is =
> not a one-word-at-a-time affair.
>
> 3. It may be fair to call opening with two modifiers that have different =
> "ranks," as Bruce puts it awkward, but I want to defend its inclusion =
> here, both pedagogically as a subject for in-class discussion, and as an =
> appropriate structure of a high-stakes test.
>
> The task in this section is error identification, not stylistic =
> judgment. If we identify the sentence as awkward, so what? Awkward =
> according to whose lights? It's not how I would normally write, but =
> that's not a sufficient criterion for rejecting the sentences inclusion =
> on a test. There is a fine line (and perhaps a slippery slope too) when =
> we start rejecting sentences like this for awkwardness. Academic authors =
> do use this sort of opening reasonably often. We might not consider it =
> ideal, but if we reject it, what do we say to students who find, say =
> putting a that-clause in a subject to be awkward? (Few of them write =
> such clauses--they much prefer the extraposed version.) It's easy to =
> reject constructions you're not used to as awkward, and do we really =
> want students to use "it sounds funny to me" as a criterion for =
> correctness?
>
> Given that we're asking students to look for grammatical errors, it's =
> important that students be able to parse complex, highly embedded syntax =
> to say, "there is no error here." So rather than talk about awkwardness =
> and condemn the SAT makers for being bad writers, I prefer to say that =
> this sort of double left-branching opening imposes a significantly =
> heavier interpretive burden on readers than a more simply constructed =
> sentence, and that is a good thing for a test. We want some test items =
> that will distinguish students who can deal with complex syntax from =
> those who cannot.
>
> I'm not arguing here for the appropriateness of the writing section as a =
> whole. But given it's inclusion, I think that such syntax is appropriate =
> in some questions.
>
> Karl
>
> On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:
>
>>=20
>> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but =
> I'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:
>> =20
>> According to (a ) their high school basketball coach, (b ) although =
> Beth and her sisters worked
>>=20
>> equally hard in practice, Beth (c ) tended to outperform them both (d =
> ) during games. (e) No error
>> =20
>> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the following =
> logic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters =
> worked equally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them =
> both during games" should established by "although" between them. =
> However, "although" is misplaced since "According to their high school =
> basketball coach" doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters worked =
> equally hard in practice". I can see how both clauses might work to =
> modify "Beth tended to outperform them both during games," but it's an =
> awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily grammatically flawed, but =
> awkward.
>> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students =
> disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.
>> Thanks as always...
>> =20
>> John
>> =20
>> =20
>>=20
>> --=20
>> John Chorazy
>> English III Honors and Academic
>> Pequannock Township High School
>> 973.616.6000
>>=20
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
> "Join or leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>=20
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:49:01 +0000
> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> Karl, et. al. =0A=
> I haven't looked at the SAT in a year or so but I think I remember
> qu=
> estions about the most felicitous choice (not just error.) Has that
> changed=
> ?=0A=
> One problem with calling this sentence "awkward" is that we have taken
> =
> it out of its discourse context. In this form , the fact that Beth
> outperfo=
> rms her sisters in games is placed in the main clause AND in sentence
> endin=
> g prominence. The fact that we are told that they practice equally hard
> s=
> eems to me to show the author is setting this up to declare a different
> rea=
> son for Beth's game performance, perhaps greater talent or grittiness or
> he=
> art. The sentence seems very reasonably structured for those purposes.
> It'=
> s very common in journalism and academic writing to start with
> attribution=
> . What follows has a somewhat independent syntax (almost like a projected
> c=
> lause in a direct quote.) "Their high school coach said, "Although Beth
> and=
> her sisters practice equally hard, Beth outperforms them in games."In
> that=
> form, I don'rt think it would raise an eyebrow.=0A=
> My main problem with the SAT's is that they purport to test knowledge
> a=
> bout language, but are afraid to do so directly. It seems to me that most
> h=
> igh school students wouldn't understand the dynamics of this sentence
> suffi=
> ciently well enough to have a conversation about it. John's students may
> be=
> an exception. For the most part, the SAT asks for intuitive decisions.=0A=
> If you are directly teaching grammar and want to test for that, you
> wou=
> ld ask very different kinds of questions. In the current environment, very
> =
> few students would do well.=0A=
> =0A=
> Craig=0A=
> =0A=
> =0A=
> ________________________________________=0A=
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]
> U] on behalf of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]=0A=
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:18 PM=0A=
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: SAT question=0A=
> =0A=
> I'm going to defend the SAT here, on several levels. First, I agree with
> th=
> e SAT writers. There's no error in this sentence. In terms of pedagogy, I
> s=
> ee several issues:=0A=
> =0A=
> 1. Your students have an overly simplistic notion of modification. I doubt
> =
> they really believe that modifiers always must modify what comes
> immediatel=
> y to their left. Perhaps they are over-generalizing from instances of
> so-ca=
> lled squinting modifiers, where the modifier might apply either to the
> clau=
> se to the left or to the one to the right. Merely being adjacent to
> somethi=
> ng, however, doesn't necessarily create an ambiguity. There needs to be a
> p=
> lausible semantic situation where the modification could make sense, and
> in=
> this case, there isn't one. I often notice students who have been taught
> a=
> bout grammatical ambiguity tend to over-generalize and tend to claim
> ambigu=
> ity based on mere proximity rather than any sensible interpretive
> issue.=0A=
> =0A=
> 2. Your students are focused on a single word, "although" and saying that
> i=
> t's misplaced, but if, hypothetically, we accept this as an error, it's
> the=
> entire subordinate clause that would be misplaced, not a single word. On
> a=
> purely pragmatic level of SAT strategy, this CANNOT be the error, as the
> r=
> ules of the game clearly state that any error will be entirely confined to
> =
> the underlined choice, meaning that there must exist a fix for the problem
> =
> that can be executed only by changing that one part. Moving the whole
> claus=
> e is disallowed under the rules of the game. More importantly, that your
> st=
> udents are focused on the word shows they are thinking of grammatical
> relat=
> ionships only on the level of individual words, but it's very important to
> =
> stress that many relationships exist at higher levels--phrases and
> clauses.=
> Grammar is not a one-word-at-a-time affair.=0A=
> =0A=
> 3. It may be fair to call opening with two modifiers that have different
> "r=
> anks," as Bruce puts it awkward, but I want to defend its inclusion here,
> b=
> oth pedagogically as a subject for in-class discussion, and as an
> appropria=
> te structure of a high-stakes test.=0A=
> =0A=
> The task in this section is error identification, not stylistic judgment.
> I=
> f we identify the sentence as awkward, so what? Awkward according to whose
> =
> lights? It's not how I would normally write, but that's not a sufficient
> cr=
> iterion for rejecting the sentences inclusion on a test. There is a fine
> li=
> ne (and perhaps a slippery slope too) when we start rejecting sentences
> lik=
> e this for awkwardness. Academic authors do use this sort of opening
> reason=
> ably often. We might not consider it ideal, but if we reject it, what do
> we=
> say to students who find, say putting a that-clause in a subject to be
> awk=
> ward? (Few of them write such clauses--they much prefer the extraposed
> vers=
> ion.) It's easy to reject constructions you're not used to as awkward, and
> =
> do we really want students to use "it sounds funny to me" as a criterion
> fo=
> r correctness?=0A=
> =0A=
> Given that we're asking students to look for grammatical errors, it's
> impo=
> rtant that students be able to parse complex, highly embedded syntax to
> say=
> , "there is no error here." So rather than talk about awkwardness and
> conde=
> mn the SAT makers for being bad writers, I prefer to say that this sort of
> =
> double left-branching opening imposes a significantly heavier interpretive
> =
> burden on readers than a more simply constructed sentence, and that is a
> go=
> od thing for a test. We want some test items that will distinguish
> students=
> who can deal with complex syntax from those who cannot.=0A=
> =0A=
> I'm not arguing here for the appropriateness of the writing section as a
> wh=
> ole. But given it's inclusion, I think that such syntax is appropriate in
> s=
> ome questions.=0A=
> =0A=
> Karl=0A=
> =0A=
> On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:=0A=
> =0A=
>>=0A=
>> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but
>> I'=
> d like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:=0A=
>>=0A=
>> According to (a ) their high school basketball coach, (b ) although Beth
>> =
> and her sisters worked=0A=
>>=0A=
>> equally hard in practice, Beth (c ) tended to outperform them both (d )
>> d=
> uring games. (e) No error=0A=
>>=0A=
>> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the following
>> lo=
> gic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked
> equ=
> ally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> game=
> s" should established by "although" between them. However, "although" is
> mi=
> splaced since "According to their high school basketball coach" doesn't
> mod=
> ify "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in practice". I can
> =
> see how both clauses might work to modify "Beth tended to outperform them
> b=
> oth during games," but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily
> gram=
> matically flawed, but awkward.=0A=
>> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students
>> disag=
> ree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.=0A=
>> Thanks as always...=0A=
>>=0A=
>> John=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> --=0A=
>> John Chorazy=0A=
>> English III Honors and Academic=0A=
>> Pequannock Township High School=0A=
>> 973.616.6000=0A=
>>=0A=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interfac=
> e at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> lea=
> ve the list"=0A=
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
>>=0A=
> =0A=
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:=0A=
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A=
> and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=
> =0A=
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
> =0A=
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:43:37 +0300
> From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> --_----------=_1324413817275640
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:43:37 -0500
> X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
>
> Hi John,
>
> This is an interesting question and I'm very interested to read
> comments by list members on it. Thanks for posting it.
>
> I'm also interested to see that your students feel there is some
> problem with it. I doubt that any of them would tell you that
> they do not understand it, were you to ask them, and this is the
> first indication that it could well be correct. When something is
> wrong, then there is a reason why it is wrong and if we can't
> explain that then, again, it may not be wrong at all.
>
> The problem they are having may be due to a pedagogy that focuses
> on "find the mistake" rather than one that focuses on "explain
> the constructions and their functions." There is, of course,
> merit in both approaches, but with the first we are searching for
> unknowns, with the second we are examining knowns, or that's how
> I see it anyway.
>
> Mark
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011, at 09:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:
>
> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may
> vary, but I'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular
> question:
>
>
>
> According to (a ) their high school basketball coach, (b )
> although Beth and her sisters worked
>
>
> equally hard in practice, Beth (c ) tended tooutperform them both
> (d ) during games. (e) No error
>
>
>
> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the
> following logic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and
> her sisters worked equally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to
> outperform them both during games" should established by
> "although" between them. However, "although" is misplaced since
> "According to their high school basketball coach" doesn't modify
> "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in practice".
> I can see how both clauses might work to modify "Beth tended to
> outperform them both during games," but it's an awkward sentence.
> Maybe not necessarily grammatically flawed, but awkward.
>
> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My
> students disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.
>
> Thanks as always...
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Chorazy
>
> English III Honors and Academic
>
> Pequannock Township High School
>
> 973.616.6000
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join
> or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --_----------=_1324413817275640
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:43:37 -0500
> X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface
>
> <!--/*SC*/DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
> "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"/*EC*/-->
> <html><head><title></title><style type="text/css"><!--
> body{padding:1ex;margin:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small}a[href]{color:-moz-hyperlinktext!important;text-decoration:-moz-anchor-decoration}blockquote{margin:0;border-left:2px
> solid #144fae;padding-left:1em}blockquote
> blockquote{border-color:#006312}blockquote blockquote
> blockquote{border-color:#540000} --></style></head><body><div
> style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium;" dir="ltr"><div>
> Hi John,</div>
> <div>
> </div>
> <div>
> This is an interesting question and I'm very interested to read
> comments by list members on it. Thanks for posting it.</div>
> <div>
> </div>
> <div>
> I'm also interested to see that your students feel there is some
> problem with it. I doubt that any of them would tell you that they do not
> understand it, were you to ask them, and this is the first indication that
> it could well be correct. When something is wrong, then there is a reason
> why it is wrong and if we can't explain that then, again, it may not
> be wrong at all.</div>
> <div>
> </div>
> <div class="defangedMessage">
> <div id="me39767">
> <div>
> The problem they are having may be due to a pedagogy that focuses on
> "find the mistake" rather than one that focuses on "explain
> the constructions and their functions." There is, of course,
> merit in both approaches, but with the first we are searching for
> unknowns, with the second we are examining knowns, or that's how I see
> it anyway.</div>
> <div>
> </div>
> <div>
> Mark</div>
> <div>
> </div>
> <div>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011, at 09:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:</div>
> <blockquote class="me39767QuoteMessage" type="cite">
> <br clear="all" />
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span lang="EN" style="LINE-HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE:12pt">Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT
> and its methods may vary, but I'd like to ask your thoughts on this
> particular question:</span></div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> </div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span lang="EN" style="LINE-HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE:12pt">According to <span><label>(<span><u>a
> </u></span></label>) </span><span style="font-weight:
> bold"><u>their</u></span></span> high school basketball coach,
> <span><label>(<span><u>b </u></span></label>) </span><span
> style="font-weight: bold"><u>although</u></span> Beth and her sisters
> worked</div>
> <p class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> </p>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span lang="EN" style="LINE-HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE:12pt">equally hard in practice, Beth
> <span><label>(<span><u>c </u></span></label>) </span><span
> style="font-weight: bold"><u>tended to</u></span></span>outperform them
> both <span><label>(<span><u>d </u></span></label>) </span><span
> style="font-weight: bold"><u>during</u></span> games. <span><label><span
> lang="EN" style="LINE-HEIGHT:115%;FONT-FAMILY:'Times New
> Roman','serif';FONT-SIZE:12pt">(<span><u>e)
> </u></span></span></label></span><span style="font-weight: bold"><u>No
> error</u></span></div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> </div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span>My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the
> following logic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her
> sisters worked equally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to
> outperform them both during games" should established by
> "although" between them. However, "although" is
> misplaced since "According to their high school basketball
> coach" doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters worked
> equally hard in practice". I can see how both clauses might work
> to modify "Beth tended to outperform them both during games,"
> but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily grammatically
> flawed, but awkward.</span></div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span>SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students
> disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.</span></div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span>Thanks as always...</span></div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> </div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> <span>John</span></div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> </div>
> <div class="me39767MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0in 0in 10pt">
> </div>
> <br />
> --<br />
> <div>
> John Chorazy</div>
> <div>
> English III Honors and Academic</div>
> <div>
> Pequannock Township High School</div>
> <div>
> 973.616.6000</div>
> <br />
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</p>
> </blockquote>
> </div>
> </div>
> <div>
> </div>
> </div><div>--</div>
> <div><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div>
> </body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> --_----------=_1324413817275640--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:15:42 -0800
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> Craig,
>
> That hasn't changed, but this question type is explicitly about error =
> identification. Here are the official instructions for this question =
> type:
>
> "The following sentences test your ability to recognize grammar and =
> usage errors. Each sentence contains either a single error or no error =
> at all. No sentence contains more than one error. The error, if there is =
> one, is underlined and lettered. If the sentence contains an error, =
> select the one underlined part that must be changed to make the sentence =
> correct. If the sentence is correct, select choice E. In choosing =
> answers, follow the requirements of standard written English."
>
> Felicity can enter into some of the other question types. The =
> instructions for sentence revision refer to "correctness and =
> effectiveness of expression." "Effectiveness" is potentially a vague =
> catch-all, but in practice, the test makers seem to have specific things =
> in mind, such as wordiness or information flow.
>
> I would not completely agree that the SAT "asks" for intuitive =
> decisions. It is structured to _allow_ such decisions. You certainly =
> don't need to know what to call a dangling modifier is as long as you =
> can flag it as a problem. You don't need to be able to explain =
> subject-verb agreement as long as you can look at a verb and say, =
> "That's wrong." But there are many problems on the SAT that will =
> confound most students who rely on intuition alone. Every problem I've =
> ever seen on the SAT is reducible to an explicit grammatical principle, =
> and can be analyzed as such. Some are easier to teach than others, but =
> explicit grammatical knowledge is of direct benefit to anyone taking =
> this test.
>
> Karl
>
> On Dec 20, 2011, at 11:49 AM, Hancock, Craig G wrote:
>
>> Karl, et. al.=20
>> I haven't looked at the SAT in a year or so but I think I =
> remember questions about the most felicitous choice (not just error.) =
> Has that changed?
>> One problem with calling this sentence "awkward" is that we have =
> taken it out of its discourse context. In this form , the fact that Beth =
> outperforms her sisters in games is placed in the main clause AND in =
> sentence ending prominence. The fact that we are told that they =
> practice equally hard seems to me to show the author is setting this up =
> to declare a different reason for Beth's game performance, perhaps =
> greater talent or grittiness or heart. The sentence seems very =
> reasonably structured for those purposes. It's very common in journalism =
> and academic writing to start with attribution. What follows has a =
> somewhat independent syntax (almost like a projected clause in a direct =
> quote.) "Their high school coach said, "Although Beth and her sisters =
> practice equally hard, Beth outperforms them in games."In that form, I =
> don'rt think it would raise an eyebrow.
>> My main problem with the SAT's is that they purport to test =
> knowledge about language, but are afraid to do so directly. It seems to =
> me that most high school students wouldn't understand the dynamics of =
> this sentence sufficiently well enough to have a conversation about it. =
> John's students may be an exception. For the most part, the SAT asks for =
> intuitive decisions.
>> If you are directly teaching grammar and want to test for that, you =
> would ask very different kinds of questions. In the current environment, =
> very few students would do well.
>>=20
>> Craig
>>=20
>>=20
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar =
> [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Karl Hagen =
> [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:18 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: SAT question
>>=20
>> I'm going to defend the SAT here, on several levels. First, I agree =
> with the SAT writers. There's no error in this sentence. In terms of =
> pedagogy, I see several issues:
>>=20
>> 1. Your students have an overly simplistic notion of modification. I =
> doubt they really believe that modifiers always must modify what comes =
> immediately to their left. Perhaps they are over-generalizing from =
> instances of so-called squinting modifiers, where the modifier might =
> apply either to the clause to the left or to the one to the right. =
> Merely being adjacent to something, however, doesn't necessarily create =
> an ambiguity. There needs to be a plausible semantic situation where the =
> modification could make sense, and in this case, there isn't one. I =
> often notice students who have been taught about grammatical ambiguity =
> tend to over-generalize and tend to claim ambiguity based on mere =
> proximity rather than any sensible interpretive issue.
>>=20
>> 2. Your students are focused on a single word, "although" and saying =
> that it's misplaced, but if, hypothetically, we accept this as an error, =
> it's the entire subordinate clause that would be misplaced, not a single =
> word. On a purely pragmatic level of SAT strategy, this CANNOT be the =
> error, as the rules of the game clearly state that any error will be =
> entirely confined to the underlined choice, meaning that there must =
> exist a fix for the problem that can be executed only by changing that =
> one part. Moving the whole clause is disallowed under the rules of the =
> game. More importantly, that your students are focused on the word shows =
> they are thinking of grammatical relationships only on the level of =
> individual words, but it's very important to stress that many =
> relationships exist at higher levels--phrases and clauses. Grammar is =
> not a one-word-at-a-time affair.
>>=20
>> 3. It may be fair to call opening with two modifiers that have =
> different "ranks," as Bruce puts it awkward, but I want to defend its =
> inclusion here, both pedagogically as a subject for in-class discussion, =
> and as an appropriate structure of a high-stakes test.
>>=20
>> The task in this section is error identification, not stylistic =
> judgment. If we identify the sentence as awkward, so what? Awkward =
> according to whose lights? It's not how I would normally write, but =
> that's not a sufficient criterion for rejecting the sentences inclusion =
> on a test. There is a fine line (and perhaps a slippery slope too) when =
> we start rejecting sentences like this for awkwardness. Academic authors =
> do use this sort of opening reasonably often. We might not consider it =
> ideal, but if we reject it, what do we say to students who find, say =
> putting a that-clause in a subject to be awkward? (Few of them write =
> such clauses--they much prefer the extraposed version.) It's easy to =
> reject constructions you're not used to as awkward, and do we really =
> want students to use "it sounds funny to me" as a criterion for =
> correctness?
>>=20
>> Given that we're asking students to look for grammatical errors, it's =
> important that students be able to parse complex, highly embedded syntax =
> to say, "there is no error here." So rather than talk about awkwardness =
> and condemn the SAT makers for being bad writers, I prefer to say that =
> this sort of double left-branching opening imposes a significantly =
> heavier interpretive burden on readers than a more simply constructed =
> sentence, and that is a good thing for a test. We want some test items =
> that will distinguish students who can deal with complex syntax from =
> those who cannot.
>>=20
>> I'm not arguing here for the appropriateness of the writing section as =
> a whole. But given it's inclusion, I think that such syntax is =
> appropriate in some questions.
>>=20
>> Karl
>>=20
>> On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, =
> but I'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:
>>>=20
>>> According to (a ) their high school basketball coach, (b ) although =
> Beth and her sisters worked
>>>=20
>>> equally hard in practice, Beth (c ) tended to outperform them both (d =
> ) during games. (e) No error
>>>=20
>>> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the =
> following logic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her =
> sisters worked equally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform =
> them both during games" should established by "although" between them. =
> However, "although" is misplaced since "According to their high school =
> basketball coach" doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters worked =
> equally hard in practice". I can see how both clauses might work to =
> modify "Beth tended to outperform them both during games," but it's an =
> awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily grammatically flawed, but =
> awkward.
>>> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students =
> disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.
>>> Thanks as always...
>>>=20
>>> John
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> John Chorazy
>>> English III Honors and Academic
>>> Pequannock Township High School
>>> 973.616.6000
>>>=20
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select =
> "Join or leave the list"
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>=20
>>=20
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>=20
>>=20
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>=20
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:57:06 +0000
> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> Karl,=0A=
> Your response is very clear and useful.=0A=
> My experience has been that most progressive teachers believe that
> gr=
> ammar is largely an intuitive system that most students will acquire while
> =
> the attention is on other things. I teach a new group of college freshmen
> e=
> very year,and most will say that their teachers wanted them to learn
> "liter=
> ary elements," but not anything substantial about grammar. I usually give
> m=
> y incoming students a list of terms that include "phrase," "clause,"
> "subor=
> dinate clause," "sentence fragment." "run-on sentence," and so on, and it
> i=
> s very rare to get even one thoughtful answer in a class. For "fragment"
> an=
> d 'run-on," they have very soft answers like "a run-on sentence runs on
> too=
> long." For "clause," and "phrase," they have no clue. I don't know if
> that=
> holds true outside of New York, but it has been true of my students for
> ma=
> ny years. =0A=
> The SAT's, as currently constituted, don't challenge that assumption.
> I=
> f they asked for knowledge about language directly, then teachers would
> hav=
> e a direct incentive to teach it. Since we don't test for it, teachers can
> =
> continue to assume that intuitive knowledge is sufficient. =0A=
> Meanwhile, we can continue to make the argument, as you do well, that
> k=
> nowledge about language will help students do better on the test. The test
> =
> makers make our argument harder by not requiring it. =0A=
> =0A=
> Craig=0A=
> ________________________________________=0A=
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]
> U] on behalf of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]=0A=
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:15 PM=0A=
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: SAT question=0A=
> =0A=
> Craig,=0A=
> =0A=
> That hasn't changed, but this question type is explicitly about error
> ident=
> ification. Here are the official instructions for this question type:=0A=
> =0A=
> "The following sentences test your ability to recognize grammar and usage
> e=
> rrors. Each sentence contains either a single error or no error at all. No
> =
> sentence contains more than one error. The error, if there is one, is
> under=
> lined and lettered. If the sentence contains an error, select the one
> under=
> lined part that must be changed to make the sentence correct. If the
> senten=
> ce is correct, select choice E. In choosing answers, follow the
> requirement=
> s of standard written English."=0A=
> =0A=
> Felicity can enter into some of the other question types. The instructions
> =
> for sentence revision refer to "correctness and effectiveness of
> expression=
> ." "Effectiveness" is potentially a vague catch-all, but in practice, the
> t=
> est makers seem to have specific things in mind, such as wordiness or
> infor=
> mation flow.=0A=
> =0A=
> I would not completely agree that the SAT "asks" for intuitive decisions.
> I=
> t is structured to _allow_ such decisions. You certainly don't need to
> know=
> what to call a dangling modifier is as long as you can flag it as a
> proble=
> m. You don't need to be able to explain subject-verb agreement as long as
> y=
> ou can look at a verb and say, "That's wrong." But there are many problems
> =
> on the SAT that will confound most students who rely on intuition alone.
> Ev=
> ery problem I've ever seen on the SAT is reducible to an explicit
> grammatic=
> al principle, and can be analyzed as such. Some are easier to teach than
> ot=
> hers, but explicit grammatical knowledge is of direct benefit to anyone
> tak=
> ing this test.=0A=
> =0A=
> Karl=0A=
> =0A=
> On Dec 20, 2011, at 11:49 AM, Hancock, Craig G wrote:=0A=
> =0A=
>> Karl, et. al.=0A=
>> I haven't looked at the SAT in a year or so but I think I remember
>> q=
> uestions about the most felicitous choice (not just error.) Has that
> change=
> d?=0A=
>> One problem with calling this sentence "awkward" is that we have
>> taken=
> it out of its discourse context. In this form , the fact that Beth
> outperf=
> orms her sisters in games is placed in the main clause AND in sentence
> endi=
> ng prominence. The fact that we are told that they practice equally hard
> =
> seems to me to show the author is setting this up to declare a different
> re=
> ason for Beth's game performance, perhaps greater talent or grittiness or
> h=
> eart. The sentence seems very reasonably structured for those purposes.
> It=
> 's very common in journalism and academic writing to start with
> attributio=
> n. What follows has a somewhat independent syntax (almost like a projected
> =
> clause in a direct quote.) "Their high school coach said, "Although Beth
> an=
> d her sisters practice equally hard, Beth outperforms them in games."In
> tha=
> t form, I don'rt think it would raise an eyebrow.=0A=
>> My main problem with the SAT's is that they purport to test knowledge
>> =
> about language, but are afraid to do so directly. It seems to me that most
> =
> high school students wouldn't understand the dynamics of this sentence
> suff=
> iciently well enough to have a conversation about it. John's students may
> b=
> e an exception. For the most part, the SAT asks for intuitive
> decisions.=0A=
>> If you are directly teaching grammar and want to test for that, you
>> wo=
> uld ask very different kinds of questions. In the current environment,
> very=
> few students would do well.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Craig=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> ________________________________________=0A=
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]
> EDU] on behalf of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]=0A=
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:18 PM=0A=
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: SAT question=0A=
>>=0A=
>> I'm going to defend the SAT here, on several levels. First, I agree with
>> =
> the SAT writers. There's no error in this sentence. In terms of pedagogy,
> I=
> see several issues:=0A=
>>=0A=
>> 1. Your students have an overly simplistic notion of modification. I
>> doub=
> t they really believe that modifiers always must modify what comes
> immediat=
> ely to their left. Perhaps they are over-generalizing from instances of
> so-=
> called squinting modifiers, where the modifier might apply either to the
> cl=
> ause to the left or to the one to the right. Merely being adjacent to
> somet=
> hing, however, doesn't necessarily create an ambiguity. There needs to be
> a=
> plausible semantic situation where the modification could make sense, and
> =
> in this case, there isn't one. I often notice students who have been
> taught=
> about grammatical ambiguity tend to over-generalize and tend to claim
> ambi=
> guity based on mere proximity rather than any sensible interpretive
> issue.=
> =0A=
>>=0A=
>> 2. Your students are focused on a single word, "although" and saying
>> that=
> it's misplaced, but if, hypothetically, we accept this as an error, it's
> t=
> he entire subordinate clause that would be misplaced, not a single word.
> On=
> a purely pragmatic level of SAT strategy, this CANNOT be the error, as
> the=
> rules of the game clearly state that any error will be entirely confined
> t=
> o the underlined choice, meaning that there must exist a fix for the
> proble=
> m that can be executed only by changing that one part. Moving the whole
> cla=
> use is disallowed under the rules of the game. More importantly, that your
> =
> students are focused on the word shows they are thinking of grammatical
> rel=
> ationships only on the level of individual words, but it's very important
> t=
> o stress that many relationships exist at higher levels--phrases and
> clause=
> s. Grammar is not a one-word-at-a-time affair.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> 3. It may be fair to call opening with two modifiers that have different
>> =
> "ranks," as Bruce puts it awkward, but I want to defend its inclusion
> here,=
> both pedagogically as a subject for in-class discussion, and as an
> appropr=
> iate structure of a high-stakes test.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> The task in this section is error identification, not stylistic
>> judgment.=
> If we identify the sentence as awkward, so what? Awkward according to
> whos=
> e lights? It's not how I would normally write, but that's not a sufficient
> =
> criterion for rejecting the sentences inclusion on a test. There is a fine
> =
> line (and perhaps a slippery slope too) when we start rejecting sentences
> l=
> ike this for awkwardness. Academic authors do use this sort of opening
> reas=
> onably often. We might not consider it ideal, but if we reject it, what do
> =
> we say to students who find, say putting a that-clause in a subject to be
> a=
> wkward? (Few of them write such clauses--they much prefer the extraposed
> ve=
> rsion.) It's easy to reject constructions you're not used to as awkward,
> an=
> d do we really want students to use "it sounds funny to me" as a criterion
> =
> for correctness?=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Given that we're asking students to look for grammatical errors, it's
>> im=
> portant that students be able to parse complex, highly embedded syntax to
> s=
> ay, "there is no error here." So rather than talk about awkwardness and
> con=
> demn the SAT makers for being bad writers, I prefer to say that this sort
> o=
> f double left-branching opening imposes a significantly heavier
> interpretiv=
> e burden on readers than a more simply constructed sentence, and that is a
> =
> good thing for a test. We want some test items that will distinguish
> studen=
> ts who can deal with complex syntax from those who cannot.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> I'm not arguing here for the appropriateness of the writing section as a
>> =
> whole. But given it's inclusion, I think that such syntax is appropriate
> in=
> some questions.=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Karl=0A=
>>=0A=
>> On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:=0A=
>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but
>>> I=
> 'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> According to (a ) their high school basketball coach, (b ) although
>>> Beth=
> and her sisters worked=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> equally hard in practice, Beth (c ) tended to outperform them both (d )
>>> =
> during games. (e) No error=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the following
>>> l=
> ogic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked
> eq=
> ually hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
> gam=
> es" should established by "although" between them. However, "although" is
> m=
> isplaced since "According to their high school basketball coach" doesn't
> mo=
> dify "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in practice". I
> can=
> see how both clauses might work to modify "Beth tended to outperform them
> =
> both during games," but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe not necessarily
> gra=
> mmatically flawed, but awkward.=0A=
>>> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students
>>> disa=
> gree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.=0A=
>>> Thanks as always...=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> John=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> --=0A=
>>> John Chorazy=0A=
>>> English III Honors and Academic=0A=
>>> Pequannock Township High School=0A=
>>> 973.616.6000=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interfa=
> ce at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> le=
> ave the list"=0A=
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
>>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interfac=
> e at:=0A=
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A=
>> and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
>>=0A=
>>=0A=
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interfac=
> e at:=0A=
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A=
>> and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=
>>=0A=
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
> =0A=
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> =
> at:=0A=
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A=
> and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=
> =0A=
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A=
> =0A=
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:27:19 -0500
> From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: "textspeak" and grammar rules
>
> Hi, Larry.
>
> One aspect of textspeak that is clear to me is that there do appear to
> be several varieties (we could call them dialects!) that seem to be
> based on age or other group memberships of the writer/speaker.
>
> The example with you and your wife is a good example. When does 'y' mean
> 'yes', and when does it mean 'why'. I imagine that some users would say
> 'y' means 'yes' and 'y?' means 'why?'
>
> The take away is that unless you really know your reader/listener, you
> need to be sure that you are clear! You probably cannot make as many
> assumptions as you think.
>
> Linda
> ________________________________________
> Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
> Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing=20
> University of Maryland University College
> School of Undergraduate Studies
> 3501 University Boulevard East
> Adelphi, MD 20783-8083
>
> College English Association-Middle Atlantic Group
> http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/
>
> Maryland Communication Association
> http://www.marylandcomm.org/
>
> (240) 684-2830 (Department)
> (240) 684-2928 (Office)
> (240) 684-2995 (Fax)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Larry Beason
> Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 1:20 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: "textspeak" and grammar rules
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> My co-author and I were asked to develop a 2nd edition of our usage book
> aimed at a general audience (McGraw-Hill Guide to Grammar & Usage). I'd
> like to pick your brains about the content of a particular section.
>
> One brief chapter we'll add is tentatively titled "textspeak," and our
> goal is to offer guidance regarding grammar and usage regarding
> e-communication in diverse contexts (email, text messages, social
> networking, etc.). This includes what should be common sense (e.g.,
> avoid textspeak when writing formal hardcopy or formal e-texts.
>
> For the most part, there are few 'rules' that apply all these diverse
> situations, so our guidance will be broad and flexible for the most
> part.=20
>
> However, are there specific grammar or usage issues that you think are
> worth discussing with a broad range of readers in terms of e-texts?
> Are there common errors, for instance, that you see that involve
> 'textspeak' or e-communication? It's hard to develop rules or
> conventions in such a quickly-changing mode of communication, but do you
> see particular grammar, punctuation, or perhaps even stylistic problems
> that commonly occur in e-texts (or because of e-texts)?
>
> For instance, even in informal e-communication, I often see certain
> distracting or confusing language or punctuation choices--such as using
> acronyms that aren't commonly known (I responded to my wife's text the
> other day by answering "y" to a question. She saw this as challenging
> her question, while I thought it was clear I meant "yes". She won.)
> Another problematic choice even in informal e-texts is, I think, not
> using sentence-ending punctuation in any sentence except the last in a
> text message.
>
> If anyone has time for discussing 'particularly annoying or confusing'
> usage choices involving e-communication, I would appreciate your
> thoughts.
>
> Larry Beason
>
> ____________________________
> Larry Beason, Associate Professor
> Director of Composition
> University of South Alabama
> Mobile, AL 36688-0002
> Office: 251-460-7861
> FAX: 251-461-1517
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:04:43 -0500
> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> --bcaec548a475ccc9dd04b48e176e
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Karl, Craig, and all - thank you for your responses.
>
> The SAT does include questions that pertain to usage issues that cannot be
> pinned down to a survey of high school grammar instruction. That's a
> separate issue, I suppose. Karl - in many cases with sentence corrections,
> the subject seems somehow out of place and not, as you notice, a modifier
> (or a single word in the case of my original model). Here's another:
>
> Although criticized by a few for her daredevil aviation escapades, *most
> people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot.
> *
> (a) most people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot
> (b) most people viewed Amelia Earhart to be a skillful pilot
> (c) a skillful pilot was what most people viewed Amelia Earhart as
> (d) Amelia Earhart was viewed by most people as a skillful pilot
> (e) Amelia Earhart, a skillful pilot in the view of most people
>
> Can we name the exact and explicit grammatical principle? It's not a
> misplaced modifier, since according to the question the subject and
> predicate is the underlined issue. What would you call that, in a certain,
> specific term? What would Warriner's call this?
>
> As far as an error being confined to the underlined choice, a question
> such
> as the one below defies that suggestion:
>
> *Given her strong sense* of social justice, Burns *vehemently* *protested
> over* her party's failure *to support* a tax decrease.
>
> Only a part of the underlined phrase "protested over" needs correction -
> the elimination of "over". What's the explicit grammatical principal? Is
> wordiness grammatical, or stylistic?
>
> Craig - your students need those terms from you because teachers at the
> High School level believe Hillocks et al since their college professors in
>Methods courses tout Hillocks et al. And then they come to department
> meetings and share articles from NCTE that tout Hillocks et al. Many
> students come to me, a teacher of 11th graders, not knowing that an adverb
> modifies a verb, and not knowing what it means to modify at all, frankly.
> That they are being exposed to these discussion is huge for them - yes, I
> do let them read your collective responses. And if they and their
> understandings are overly simplistic, as Karl suggests, it's because
> school
> teaches them 1+1=2 and the SAT gets you into college and the world teaches
> them that if you can sing well, run fast, look pretty, or the like then
> you
> can probably make a whole lot of money. You might be surprised, but 17
> year
> old humans like to see things very clearly, especially if their teachers
> tell them so: Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and deserved what he got;
> War
> is bad and so was Bush; the "Nucleus" is that large oval body near the
> center of the cell, and other facts. They like formulas because they're
> constant and because you can use them on the test. When they take the SAT
> at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning, they're thinking one thing - how can I do
> this and pass with a score good enough to get me into my first choice
> college? It's not a conversation, it's a performance.
>
> Grammatical ambiguity on the SAT would be a lovely thing to assess, if
> teachers actually talked about it and also assessed student understanding
> of grammatical ambiguity in specific cases. I posed my initial question to
> the list because I found it interesting and because my students - young,
> impressionable, and actually willing to talk about things that others have
> labeled over their heads - wanted to know more. I believe they made a fair
> argument from their knowledge base, though I told them (as suggested in my
> first message) how they sentence was technically "correct." I'm not in the
> business of either critiquing or defending the SAT - my role is to get
> them
> ready for Craig.
>
> I thank you again for your help and for these wonderful conversations.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Hancock, Craig G
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Karl,
>> Your response is very clear and useful.
>> My experience has been that most progressive teachers believe that
>> grammar is largely an intuitive system that most students will acquire
>> while the attention is on other things. I teach a new group of college
>> freshmen every year,and most will say that their teachers wanted them to
>> learn "literary elements," but not anything substantial about grammar. I
>> usually give my incoming students a list of terms that include "phrase,"
>> "clause," "subordinate clause," "sentence fragment." "run-on sentence,"
>> and
>> so on, and it is very rare to get even one thoughtful answer in a class.
>> For "fragment" and 'run-on," they have very soft answers like "a run-on
>> sentence runs on too long." For "clause," and "phrase," they have no
>> clue.
>> I don't know if that holds true outside of New York, but it has been true
>> of my students for many years.
>> The SAT's, as currently constituted, don't challenge that assumption.
>> If they asked for knowledge about language directly, then teachers would
>> have a direct incentive to teach it. Since we don't test for it, teachers
>> can continue to assume that intuitive knowledge is sufficient.
>> Meanwhile, we can continue to make the argument, as you do well, that
>> knowledge about language will help students do better on the test. The
>> test
>> makers make our argument harder by not requiring it.
>>
>> Craig
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
>> [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:15 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: SAT question
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> That hasn't changed, but this question type is explicitly about error
>> identification. Here are the official instructions for this question
>> type:
>>
>> "The following sentences test your ability to recognize grammar and usage
>> errors. Each sentence contains either a single error or no error at all.
>> No
>> sentence contains more than one error. The error, if there is one, is
>> underlined and lettered. If the sentence contains an error, select the
>> one
>> underlined part that must be changed to make the sentence correct. If the
>> sentence is correct, select choice E. In choosing answers, follow the
>> requirements of standard written English."
>>
>> Felicity can enter into some of the other question types. The
>> instructions
>> for sentence revision refer to "correctness and effectiveness of
>> expression." "Effectiveness" is potentially a vague catch-all, but in
>> practice, the test makers seem to have specific things in mind, such as
>> wordiness or information flow.
>>
>> I would not completely agree that the SAT "asks" for intuitive decisions.
>> It is structured to _allow_ such decisions. You certainly don't need to
>> know what to call a dangling modifier is as long as you can flag it as a
>> problem. You don't need to be able to explain subject-verb agreement as
>> long as you can look at a verb and say, "That's wrong." But there are
>> many
>> problems on the SAT that will confound most students who rely on
>> intuition
>> alone. Every problem I've ever seen on the SAT is reducible to an
>> explicit
>> grammatical principle, and can be analyzed as such. Some are easier to
>> teach than others, but explicit grammatical knowledge is of direct
>> benefit
>> to anyone taking this test.
>>
>> Karl
>>
>> On Dec 20, 2011, at 11:49 AM, Hancock, Craig G wrote:
>>
>> > Karl, et. al.
>> > I haven't looked at the SAT in a year or so but I think I remember
>> questions about the most felicitous choice (not just error.) Has that
>> changed?
>> > One problem with calling this sentence "awkward" is that we have
>> taken it out of its discourse context. In this form , the fact that Beth
>> outperforms her sisters in games is placed in the main clause AND in
>> sentence ending prominence. The fact that we are told that they
>> practice
>> equally hard seems to me to show the author is setting this up to declare
>> a
>> different reason for Beth's game performance, perhaps greater talent or
>> grittiness or heart. The sentence seems very reasonably structured for
>> those purposes. It's very common in journalism and academic writing to
>> start with attribution. What follows has a somewhat independent syntax
>> (almost like a projected clause in a direct quote.) "Their high school
>> coach said, "Although Beth and her sisters practice equally hard, Beth
>> outperforms them in games."In that form, I don'rt think it would raise an
>> eyebrow.
>> > My main problem with the SAT's is that they purport to test
>> > knowledge
>> about language, but are afraid to do so directly. It seems to me that
>> most
>> high school students wouldn't understand the dynamics of this sentence
>> sufficiently well enough to have a conversation about it. John's students
>> may be an exception. For the most part, the SAT asks for intuitive
>> decisions.
>> > If you are directly teaching grammar and want to test for that, you
>> would ask very different kinds of questions. In the current environment,
>> very few students would do well.
>> >
>> > Craig
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________________
>> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
>> [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 1:18 PM
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Subject: Re: SAT question
>> >
>> > I'm going to defend the SAT here, on several levels. First, I agree
>> > with
>> the SAT writers. There's no error in this sentence. In terms of pedagogy,
>> I
>> see several issues:
>> >
>> > 1. Your students have an overly simplistic notion of modification. I
>> doubt they really believe that modifiers always must modify what comes
>> immediately to their left. Perhaps they are over-generalizing from
>> instances of so-called squinting modifiers, where the modifier might
>> apply
>> either to the clause to the left or to the one to the right. Merely being
>> adjacent to something, however, doesn't necessarily create an ambiguity.
>> There needs to be a plausible semantic situation where the modification
>> could make sense, and in this case, there isn't one. I often notice
>> students who have been taught about grammatical ambiguity tend to
>> over-generalize and tend to claim ambiguity based on mere proximity
>> rather
>> than any sensible interpretive issue.
>> >
>> > 2. Your students are focused on a single word, "although" and saying
>> that it's misplaced, but if, hypothetically, we accept this as an error,
>> it's the entire subordinate clause that would be misplaced, not a single
>> word. On a purely pragmatic level of SAT strategy, this CANNOT be the
>> error, as the rules of the game clearly state that any error will be
>> entirely confined to the underlined choice, meaning that there must exist
>> a
>> fix for the problem that can be executed only by changing that one part.
>> Moving the whole clause is disallowed under the rules of the game. More
>> importantly, that your students are focused on the word shows they are
>> thinking of grammatical relationships only on the level of individual
>> words, but it's very important to stress that many relationships exist at
>> higher levels--phrases and clauses. Grammar is not a one-word-at-a-time
>> affair.
>> >
>> > 3. It may be fair to call opening with two modifiers that have
>> > different
>> "ranks," as Bruce puts it awkward, but I want to defend its inclusion
>> here,
>> both pedagogically as a subject for in-class discussion, and as an
>> appropriate structure of a high-stakes test.
>> >
>> > The task in this section is error identification, not stylistic
>> judgment. If we identify the sentence as awkward, so what? Awkward
>> according to whose lights? It's not how I would normally write, but
>> that's
>> not a sufficient criterion for rejecting the sentences inclusion on a
>> test.
>> There is a fine line (and perhaps a slippery slope too) when we start
>> rejecting sentences like this for awkwardness. Academic authors do use
>> this
>> sort of opening reasonably often. We might not consider it ideal, but if
>> we
>> reject it, what do we say to students who find, say putting a that-clause
>> in a subject to be awkward? (Few of them write such clauses--they much
>> prefer the extraposed version.) It's easy to reject constructions you're
>> not used to as awkward, and do we really want students to use "it sounds
>> funny to me" as a criterion for correctness?
>> >
>> > Given that we're asking students to look for grammatical errors, it's
>> important that students be able to parse complex, highly embedded syntax
>> to
>> say, "there is no error here." So rather than talk about awkwardness and
>> condemn the SAT makers for being bad writers, I prefer to say that this
>> sort of double left-branching opening imposes a significantly heavier
>> interpretive burden on readers than a more simply constructed sentence,
>> and
>> that is a good thing for a test. We want some test items that will
>> distinguish students who can deal with complex syntax from those who
>> cannot.
>> >
>> > I'm not arguing here for the appropriateness of the writing section as
>> > a
>> whole. But given it's inclusion, I think that such syntax is appropriate
>> in
>> some questions.
>> >
>> > Karl
>> >
>> > On Dec 20, 2011, at 6:30 AM, John Chorazy wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Good morning... Your opinions of the SAT and its methods may vary, but
>> I'd like to ask your thoughts on this particular question:
>> >>
>> >> According to (a ) their high school basketball coach, (b ) although
>> Beth and her sisters worked
>> >>
>> >> equally hard in practice, Beth (c ) tended to outperform them both
>> >> (d )
>> during games. (e) No error
>> >>
>> >> My11th graders decided that b is the correct answer with the following
>> logic - the relationship between the clauses "Beth and her sisters worked
>> equally hard in practice" and "Beth tended to outperform them both during
>> games" should established by "although" between them. However, "although"
>> is misplaced since "According to their high school basketball coach"
>> doesn't modify "although Beth and her sisters worked equally hard in
>> practice". I can see how both clauses might work to modify "Beth tended
>> to
>> outperform them both during games," but it's an awkward sentence. Maybe
>> not
>> necessarily grammatically flawed, but awkward.
>> >> SAT suggests that (e), no error, is the correct answer. My students
>> disagree. I'd appreciate your thoughts and comments.
>> >> Thanks as always...
>> >>
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> John Chorazy
>> >> English III Honors and Academic
>> >> Pequannock Township High School
>> >> 973.616.6000
>> >>
>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> >>
>> >
>> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> > and select "Join or leave the list"
>> >
>> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>> >
>> >
>> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> > and select "Join or leave the list"
>> >
>> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> John Chorazy
> English III Honors and Academic
> Pequannock Township High School
> 973.616.6000
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --bcaec548a475ccc9dd04b48e176e
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>Karl, Craig, and all - thank you for your responses.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>The SAT does include questions that pertain to usage issues that
> canno=
> t be pinned down to a survey of high school grammar instruction.
> That's=
> a separate issue, I suppose. Karl - in many cases with sentence
> correction=
> s, the subject=A0seems somehow out of place and=A0not, as you notice, a
> mod=
> ifier (or a single word in the case of my original model). Here's
> anoth=
> er:</div>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Although criticized by a few for her daredevil aviation escapades,
> <u>=
> most people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot.<br></u></div>
> <div>(a) most people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot</div>
> <div>(b) most people viewed Amelia Earhart to be a skillful pilot</div>
> <div>(c) a skillful pilot was what most people viewed Amelia Earhart
> as</di=
> v>
> <div>(d) Amelia Earhart was viewed by most people as a skillful
> pilot</div>
> <div>(e) Amelia Earhart, a skillful pilot in the view of most people</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Can we name the exact and=A0explicit grammatical principle? It's
> n=
> ot a misplaced modifier, since according to the question the subject and
> pr=
> edicate is the underlined issue. What would you call that, in a certain,
> sp=
> ecific=A0term? What would Warriner's call this?</div>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>As far as an error being confined to the underlined choice, a
> question=
> such as the one below defies that suggestion: </div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div><u>Given her strong sense</u> of social justice, Burns
> <u>vehemently</=
> u> <u>protested over</u> her party's failure <u>to support</u> a tax
> de=
> crease.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Only a part of the underlined phrase "protested over" needs
> =
> correction - the elimination of "over". What's the explicit
> g=
> rammatical principal? Is wordiness grammatical, or stylistic?</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Craig - your students need those terms from you because teachers at
> th=
> e High School level believe Hillocks et al since their college professors
> i=
> n Methods courses tout Hillocks et al. And then they come to department
> mee=
> tings and share articles from NCTE that tout Hillocks et al. Many students
> =
> come to me, a teacher of 11th graders, not knowing that an adverb modifies
> =
> a verb, and not knowing what it means to modify at all, frankly. That they
> =
> are being exposed to these discussion is huge for them - yes, I do let
> them=
> read your collective responses. And if they and their understandings are
> o=
> verly simplistic, as Karl suggests, it's because school teaches them
> 1+=
> 1=3D2 and the SAT gets you into college and the world teaches them that if
> =
> you can sing well, run fast, look pretty, or the like then you can
> probably=
> make a whole lot of money. You might be surprised, but 17 year old humans
> =
> like to see things very clearly, especially if their teachers tell them
> so:=
> Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and deserved what he got; War is bad and
> s=
> o was Bush; the "Nucleus" is=A0that large oval body near the
> cent=
> er of the cell, and other facts. They like formulas because they're
> con=
> stant and because you can use them on the test. When they take the SAT at
> 8=
> a.m. on a Saturday morning, they're thinking one thing - how can I do
> =
> this and pass with a score good enough to get me into my first choice
> colle=
> ge? It's not a conversation, it's a performance.</div>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Grammatical ambiguity on the SAT would be a lovely thing to assess,
> if=
> teachers actually=A0talked about it and also assessed student
> understandin=
> g of grammatical ambiguity in specific cases. I posed my initial question
> t=
> o the list because I found it interesting and because my students - young,
> =
> impressionable, and actually willing to talk about things that others have
> =
> labeled over their heads - wanted to know more. I believe they made a fair
> =
> argument from their knowledge base, though I told them (as suggested in my
> =
> first message)=A0how they sentence was technically
> "correct."=A0I=
> 'm not in the business of either critiquing or defending the SAT - my
> r=
> ole is to get them ready for Craig.</div>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>I thank you again for your help and for these wonderful
> conversations.=
> </div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>John</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div><br>On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Hancock, Craig G <span
> dir=3D"ltr=
> "><<a
> href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></s=
> pan> wrote:<br></div>
> <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
> 0.8ex;PA=
> DDING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Karl,<br>=A0 =A0 =A0Your response is
> =
> very clear and useful.<br>=A0 =A0 =A0My experience has been that most
> progr=
> essive teachers believe that grammar is largely an intuitive system that
> mo=
> st students will acquire while the attention is on other things. I teach a
> =
> new group of college freshmen every year,and most will say that their
> teach=
> ers wanted them to learn "literary elements," but not anything
> su=
> bstantial about grammar. I usually give my incoming students a list of
> term=
> s that include "phrase," "clause," "subordinate
> cl=
> ause," "sentence fragment." "run-on sentence,"
> and=
> so on, and it is very rare to get even one thoughtful answer in a class.
> F=
> or "fragment" and 'run-on," they have very soft answers
> =
> like "a run-on sentence runs on too long." For
> "clause,"=
> ; and "phrase," they have no clue. I don't know if that
> holds=
> true outside of New York, but it has been true of my students for many
> yea=
> rs.<br>
> =A0 =A0The SAT's, as currently constituted, don't challenge that
> as=
> sumption. If they asked for knowledge about language directly, then
> teacher=
> s would have a direct incentive to teach it. Since we don't test for
> it=
> , teachers can continue to assume that intuitive knowledge is
> sufficient.<b=
> r>
> =A0 =A0Meanwhile, we can continue to make the argument, as you do well,
> tha=
> t knowledge about language will help students do better on the test. The
> te=
> st makers make our argument harder by not requiring
> it.<br><br>Craig<br>___=
> _____________________________________<br>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a
> href=3D"mailto:ATEG@=
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:04:20 -0600
> From: Stephen King <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> Can anyone direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the differences
> between spoken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a
> great many of my community college students, especially those who have
> been out of school for some time, use a version of English that could be
> characterized as "Spoken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested the
> acronym "SPEWD.") I have my own list of those differences, but am looking
> for other resources. Many thanks in advance!
>
> Steve King
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:17:03 -0500
> From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> --f46d0408dae3d930dc04b48f1c9e
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I'd call it a dangling element. The SAT uses this pattern often, almost
> always at the beginning of a sentence. I tell my students that the person
> ( I use the term agent since it's not always a person) that is the first
> noun you get to after the comma (possessive nouns don't count) MUST be the
> agent described in the initial phrase. Amelia Earhart was criticized, so
> they must look for a fix that begins with Amelia Earhart. Option e
> creates
> a fragment, so it's d.
>
> The protest question ETS would call an idiom issue. One doesn't protest *
> over* something. If students find no out-and-out error in a sentence,
> they
> should then search for idiom errors. Generally, these involve wrong
> prepositions.
> The third kind of error on the Writing section (beyond grammar c.90% and
> idioms c 6%) is diction (c 4%), when the wrong word is used. Past such
> errors are *indecisive* for *indefinite* in the following:
> Despite the attorney's moving plea, the judge placed the juvenile offender
> on probation for an indecisive period.
>
> and *describe* for *ascribe* in:
> Some paleontologists believe that mastodons died out because of human
> hunting, while others describe the animals' extinction to climatic changes
> at the end of the Ice Age.
>
> I have found that explicit principles do apply to all the grammar
> questions. Except for the two other rare categories, students can
> identify
> exactly what is wrong (or right) without depending on their uncertain
> "ears."
>
> Jane Saral
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:04 PM, John Chorazy
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
>> Karl, Craig, and all - thank you for your responses.
>>
>> The SAT does include questions that pertain to usage issues that cannot
>> be
>> pinned down to a survey of high school grammar instruction. That's a
>> separate issue, I suppose. Karl - in many cases with sentence
>> corrections,
>> the subject seems somehow out of place and not, as you notice, a modifier
>> (or a single word in the case of my original model). Here's another:
>>
>> Although criticized by a few for her daredevil aviation escapades, *most
>> people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot.
>> *
>> (a) most people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot
>> (b) most people viewed Amelia Earhart to be a skillful pilot
>> (c) a skillful pilot was what most people viewed Amelia Earhart as
>> (d) Amelia Earhart was viewed by most people as a skillful pilot
>> (e) Amelia Earhart, a skillful pilot in the view of most people
>>
>> Can we name the exact and explicit grammatical principle? It's not a
>> misplaced modifier, since according to the question the subject and
>> predicate is the underlined issue. What would you call that, in a
>> certain,
>> specific term? What would Warriner's call this?
>>
>> As far as an error being confined to the underlined choice, a question
>> such as the one below defies that suggestion:
>>
>> *Given her strong sense* of social justice, Burns *vehemently* *protested
>> over* her party's failure *to support* a tax decrease.
>>
>> Only a part of the underlined phrase "protested over" needs correction -
>> the elimination of "over". What's the explicit grammatical principal? Is
>> wordiness grammatical, or stylistic?
>>
>> Craig - your students need those terms from you because teachers at the
>> High School level believe Hillocks et al since their college professors
>> in
>> Methods courses tout Hillocks et al. And then they come to department
>> meetings and share articles from NCTE that tout Hillocks et al. Many
>> students come to me, a teacher of 11th graders, not knowing that an
>> adverb
>> modifies a verb, and not knowing what it means to modify at all, frankly.
>> That they are being exposed to these discussion is huge for them - yes, I
>> do let them read your collective responses. And if they and their
>> understandings are overly simplistic, as Karl suggests, it's because
>> school
>> teaches them 1+1=2 and the SAT gets you into college and the world
>> teaches
>> them that if you can sing well, run fast, look pretty, or the like then
>> you
>> can probably make a whole lot of money. You might be surprised, but 17
>> year
>> old humans like to see things very clearly, especially if their teachers
>> tell them so: Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and deserved what he got;
>> War
>> is bad and so was Bush; the "Nucleus" is that large oval body near the
>> center of the cell, and other facts. They like formulas because they're
>> constant and because you can use them on the test. When they take the SAT
>> at 8 a.m. on a Saturday morning, they're thinking one thing - how can I
>> do
>> this and pass with a score good enough to get me into my first choice
>> college? It's not a conversation, it's a performance.
>>
>> Grammatical ambiguity on the SAT would be a lovely thing to assess, if
>> teachers actually talked about it and also assessed student understanding
>> of grammatical ambiguity in specific cases. I posed my initial question
>> to
>> the list because I found it interesting and because my students - young,
>> impressionable, and actually willing to talk about things that others
>> have
>> labeled over their heads - wanted to know more. I believe they made a
>> fair
>> argument from their knowledge base, though I told them (as suggested in
>> my
>> first message) how they sentence was technically "correct." I'm not in
>> the
>> business of either critiquing or defending the SAT - my role is to get
>> them
>> ready for Craig.
>>
>> I thank you again for your help and for these wonderful conversations.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --f46d0408dae3d930dc04b48f1c9e
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <div>I'd call it a dangling element.=A0 The SAT uses this pattern
> often=
> , almost always at the beginning of a sentence.=A0 I tell my students that
> =
> the person ( I use the term agent since it's not always a person) that
> =
> is the first noun you get to after the comma (possessive nouns don't
> co=
> unt) MUST be=A0the agent described in the initial phrase.=A0=A0Amelia
> Earha=
> rt was criticized, so they must=A0look for a fix that begins with Amelia
> Ea=
> rhart.=A0 Option e creates a fragment, so it's d.=A0</div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>The protest question ETS=A0would call an idiom issue.=A0 One
> doesn'=
> ;t protest <em>over</em> something.=A0=A0If students find no out-and-out
> er=
> ror in a=A0sentence, they should then search for=A0idiom errors.=A0
> General=
> ly, these involve wrong prepositions.</div>
>
>
> <div>The third kind of error on the Writing section (beyond grammar c.90%
> a=
> nd idioms c 6%) is diction (c 4%), when the wrong word is used.=A0 Past
> suc=
> h errors are <em>indecisive</em> for <em>indefinite</em> in the
> following:<=
> /div>
>
>
> <div>Despite the attorney's moving plea, the judge placed the juvenile
> =
> offender on probation for an indecisive period.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>and <em>describe</em> for <em>ascribe</em> in:</div>
> <div>Some paleontologists believe that mastodons died out because of human
> =
> hunting, while others describe the animals' extinction to climatic
> chan=
> ges at the end of the Ice Age.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>I have found that explicit principles do apply to all the grammar
> ques=
> tions.=A0 Except for the two other rare categories, students can identify
> e=
> xactly what is wrong (or right) without depending on=A0their uncertain
> &quo=
> t;ears."</div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0Jane Saral</div>
> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:04 PM, John Chorazy
> <s=
> pan dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=
> =3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px
> 0.8ex;PA=
> DDING-LEFT:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">
> <div>Karl, Craig, and all - thank you for your responses.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>The SAT does include questions that pertain to usage issues that
> canno=
> t be pinned down to a survey of high school grammar instruction.
> That's=
> a separate issue, I suppose. Karl - in many cases with sentence
> correction=
> s, the subject=A0seems somehow out of place and=A0not, as you notice, a
> mod=
> ifier (or a single word in the case of my original model). Here's
> anoth=
> er:</div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Although criticized by a few for her daredevil aviation escapades,
> <u>=
> most people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot.<br></u></div>
> <div>(a) most people viewed Amelia Earhart as a skillful pilot</div>
> <div>(b) most people viewed Amelia Earhart to be a skillful pilot</div>
> <div>(c) a skillful pilot was what most people viewed Amelia Earhart
> as</di=
> v>
> <div>(d) Amelia Earhart was viewed by most people as a skillful
> pilot</div>
> <div>(e) Amelia Earhart, a skillful pilot in the view of most people</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Can we name the exact and=A0explicit grammatical principle? It's
> n=
> ot a misplaced modifier, since according to the question the subject and
> pr=
> edicate is the underlined issue. What would you call that, in a certain,
> sp=
> ecific=A0term? What would Warriner's call this?</div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>As far as an error being confined to the underlined choice, a
> question=
> such as the one below defies that suggestion: </div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div><u>Given her strong sense</u> of social justice, Burns
> <u>vehemently</=
> u> <u>protested over</u> her party's failure <u>to support</u> a tax
> de=
> crease.</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Only a part of the underlined phrase "protested over" needs
> =
> correction - the elimination of "over". What's the explicit
> g=
> rammatical principal? Is wordiness grammatical, or stylistic?</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Craig - your students need those terms from you because teachers at
> th=
> e High School level believe Hillocks et al since their college professors
> i=
> n Methods courses tout Hillocks et al. And then they come to department
> mee=
> tings and share articles from NCTE that tout Hillocks et al. Many students
> =
> come to me, a teacher of 11th graders, not knowing that an adverb modifies
> =
> a verb, and not knowing what it means to modify at all, frankly. That they
> =
> are being exposed to these discussion is huge for them - yes, I do let
> them=
> read your collective responses. And if they and their understandings are
> o=
> verly simplistic, as Karl suggests, it's because school teaches them
> 1+=
> 1=3D2 and the SAT gets you into college and the world teaches them that if
> =
> you can sing well, run fast, look pretty, or the like then you can
> probably=
> make a whole lot of money. You might be surprised, but 17 year old humans
> =
> like to see things very clearly, especially if their teachers tell them
> so:=
> Tiger Woods cheated on his wife and deserved what he got; War is bad and
> s=
> o was Bush; the "Nucleus" is=A0that large oval body near the
> cent=
> er of the cell, and other facts. They like formulas because they're
> con=
> stant and because you can use them on the test. When they take the SAT at
> 8=
> a.m. on a Saturday morning, they're thinking one thing - how can I do
> =
> this and pass with a score good enough to get me into my first choice
> colle=
> ge? It's not a conversation, it's a performance.</div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>Grammatical ambiguity on the SAT would be a lovely thing to assess,
> if=
> teachers actually=A0talked about it and also assessed student
> understandin=
> g of grammatical ambiguity in specific cases. I posed my initial question
> t=
> o the list because I found it interesting and because my students - young,
> =
> impressionable, and actually willing to talk about things that others have
> =
> labeled over their heads - wanted to know more. I believe they made a fair
> =
> argument from their knowledge base, though I told them (as suggested in my
> =
> first message)=A0how they sentence was technically
> "correct."=A0I=
> 'm not in the business of either critiquing or defending the SAT - my
> r=
> ole is to get them ready for Craig.</div>
>
>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>I thank you again for your help and for these wonderful
> conversations.=
> </div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>John</div>
> <div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div>=A0</div>
> <div><br>=A0</div></div></blockquote></div>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> <p>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --f46d0408dae3d930dc04b48f1c9e--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 17:00:30 -0800
> From: Carol Morrison <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> ---1176906190-1646954426-1324429230=:44276
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> I have the same issue in the community college where I teach. The writing
> s=
> ounds like speech, filled with slang, colloquialisms, and fillers that one
> =
> would find in speech but=A0undesirable in writing. Sentences preceded or
> in=
> terrupted by.."let me tell you something.." "Really?" "Snap..." "Totally,"
> =
> "Of course, everyone knows..." and my favorite:
> "Seriously..."=A0=0A=A0=0AC=
> arol Morrison=A0=0A =0A=0A________________________________=0A From:
> Stephen=
> King <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask] =0ASent:
> Tuesday,=
> December 20, 2011 7:04 PM=0ASubject: Spoken vs. formal written English=0A
> =
> =0ACan anyone direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the
> differenc=
> es between spoken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a
> g=
> reat many of my community college students, especially those who have been
> =
> out of school for some time, use a version of English that could be
> charact=
> erized as "Spoken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested the
> acronym=
> "SPEWD.") I have my own list of those differences, but am looking for
> othe=
> r resources. Many thanks in advance! =0A=0ASteve King=0A=0ATo join or
> leave=
> this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:=0A=A0 =A0
> h=
> ttp://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or leave
> th=
> e list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> ---1176906190-1646954426-1324429230=:44276
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff;
> font-family:ti=
> mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>I have
> the=
> same issue in the community college where I teach. The writing sounds
> like=
> speech, filled with slang, colloquialisms, and fillers that one would
> find=
> in speech but undesirable in writing. Sentences preceded or
> interrupt=
> ed by.."let me tell you something.." "Really?" "Snap..." "Totally," "Of
> cou=
> rse, everyone knows..." and my favorite:
> "Seriously..." </span></div><=
> div><span></span> </div><div><span>Carol
> Morrison </span></div><d=
> iv><br></div> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new york,
> times,=
> serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-family: times new roman, new
> =
> york, times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial">
> <di=
> v style=3D"margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,
> 2=
> 04); height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;" class=3D"hr"
> contentEditable=3D"false" readonly=3D"true"></div> <b><span
> style=3D"font=
> -weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Stephen King
> <[log in to unmask]><br=
>> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b>
>> [log in to unmask]
> .EDU <br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday,
> D=
> ecember 20, 2011 7:04 PM<br> <b><span style=3D"font-weight:
> bold;">Subject:=
> </span></b> Spoken vs. formal written English<br> </font> <br>=0ACan
> anyone=
> direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the differences between
> sp=
> oken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a great many of
> =
> my community college students, especially those who have been out of
> school=
> for some time, use a version of English that could be characterized as
> "Sp=
> oken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested the acronym "SPEWD.") I
> =
> have my own list of those differences, but am looking for other resources.
> =
> Many thanks in advance! <br><br>Steve King<br><br>To join or leave this
> LIS=
> TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br>
> htt=
> p://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<br>and select "Join or leave
> the=
> list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/<br><br><br> </div>
> =
> </div> </div></body></html>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
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> <p>
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> ---1176906190-1646954426-1324429230=:44276--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:28:13 -0600
> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
>
> --0015175df2b6a9f85304b4929c8f
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Steve,
>
> For the question, look at the work of Katherine Perera. She has a review
> paper in Flechter and Garmin (1986) (eds) Language Acquisition. She also
> has a book on this issue in the late eighties.
>
> Send me a request offline for some assistance on getting this paper.
>
> Bob Yates
> University of Central Missouri
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Stephen King <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Can anyone direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the
>> differences
>> between spoken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a
>> great many of my community college students, especially those who have
>> been
>> out of school for some time, use a version of English that could be
>> characterized as "Spoken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested
>> the
>> acronym "SPEWD.") I have my own list of those differences, but am looking
>> for other resources. Many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Steve King
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> --0015175df2b6a9f85304b4929c8f
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Steve,=A0<div><br></div><div>For the question, look at the work of
> Katherin=
> e Perera. =A0 She has a review paper in Flechter and Garmin (1986) (eds)
> La=
> nguage Acquisition. She also has a book on this issue in the late
> eighties.=
> </div>
> <div><br></div><div>Send me a request offline for some assistance on
> gettin=
> g this paper.</div><div><br></div><div>Bob Yates</div><div>University of
> Ce=
> ntral Missouri</div><div><br></div><div><br><br><div
> class=3D"gmail_quote">
> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Stephen King <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> href=
> =3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span>
> wrote:<br>=
> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1p=
> x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> Can anyone direct me to a text that focuses, at length, on the differences
> =
> between spoken and written versions of language? It seems to me that a
> grea=
> t many of my community college students, especially those who have been
> out=
> of school for some time, use a version of English that could be
> characteri=
> zed as "Spoken English Written Down." (A colleague suggested the
> =
> acronym "SPEWD.") I have my own list of those differences, but
> am=
> looking for other resources. Many thanks in advance!<br>
>
> <br>
> Steve King<br>
> <br>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interf=
> ace at:<br>
> =A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
> =3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br>
> <br>
> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
> target=3D"_blank"=
>>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
> </blockquote></div><br></div>
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>
> --0015175df2b6a9f85304b4929c8f--
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of ATEG Digest - 19 Dec 2011 to 20 Dec 2011 (#2011-224)
> ***********************************************************
>
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