Craig,
Sounds like an interesting program you have. Your literacy paper, in which your students reflect on their language background, sounds rather like a short paper I have my UG Language and Society students do. I ask them to interview older family members about their experience of language. If they came from a non-English background, get them to talk about the experience of acquiring a new language. If from an English background talk about experiences of dialects or of another language. The students, mostly white, lower to middle class, Midwesterners, many of them rural and first generation college students, find this a surprising and engaging task.
Herb
Herb,
You are essentially right, and, as usual, have a way to bring disparate
sides closer to harmony.
I'm actually in danger of angering both sides of the revise/correct
issue. Either leaves us with problems. But when I got to UAlbany
twenty years ago and was allowed to revamp a full writing curriculum
for incoming EOP students (then about two hundred a year, now more like
140 because we radically cut attrition) I replaced an error focused
approach with more expansive engagement with substantial writing
projects. We also ran a "language awareness' curriculum for some time,
with writing projects focused on a number of language issues, like
Black English, English only, and so on. We have retained some of that
in our important summer program. It still amazes me how quickly
students can progress when fully engaged in their writing. I tend
(always) to go top down, to help students cut, add, arrange, and
rearrange as they become clearer with their sense of purpose. We have a
Writing Across the Curriculum program on campus, so many of our
students fulfill that with a specially designed Writing Intensive
Reading Literature, which meets five days a week rather than three.
(Lots of small group work, extensive conferencing, and so on.)
Believe it or not, even though our students are recruited largely from
the poorer neighborhoods of New York City and meet very strict poverty
standards, even though many (perhaps half) are ESL, standard English
isn't the big problem you might predict. I do wish my students knew
an awful lot more about grammar coming in. Like everyone else, I have
to make tough choices about how to approach sentence level problems
with students who don't start out knowing what a clause is, believe a
sentence is a "complete thought", that a run-on sentence "has too many
ideas in it or runs on too long," and so on. Because I teach regular
admission students from time to time as well, I can report that our
students (EOP) fit nicely into the mainstream in that regard. We try
to support them over all four years, so we have a strong sense of how
their writing fares against the norm (very well). It's also a great
pleasure seeing them grow as writers simply by being college students,
learning more and more and having more and more resources to draw on
in their work. For the past few years, our students have outperformed
regular admission students in every important category (retention,
graduation, Dean's list percentages, and so on.) I am part of a very
proud and effective program, so much more than the writing is involved
in this. But I like to think there's ample evidence that a
meaning-centered, top-down approach can be highly effective.
Perhaps there is just an innate human desire to adopt the language of a
group when you are allowed/encouraged to be a part of it. I don't have
students who particularly WANT to write in school the way they would
talk to their friends, and they would probably laugh at the suggestion.
I think they naturally understand that a different audience requires
different kinds of explanation, argument, background, whatever, for
positions their friends might agree to right away. If they are allowed
to be themselves (honest and engaged), they have a great deal to offer
on important public issues. To a person, they pretty much all value the
various language communities they are a part of. (One frequent writing
project is the "literacy narrative", which asks them to reflect on
languages in their life and related goals). Johanna's point that adding
language resources is "additive" is something they would recognize and
embrace. This includes non-English family and community languages as
well.
My students, like most students entering college in the state of New
York, know almost nothing about language, and this makes it very
difficult to have useful conversations about sentence level decisions
in their writing. To me, that doesn't just mean they make too many
mistakes. It means I can't accomplish as much as I'd like to in
helping them become highly effective writers in the short time
available.
My discipline, composition, tends to mistake all gramamr teaching as
prescriptive. They tend to want to see themselves a professional
engaged in an enterprise far more important than "correcting"
language use. To make major inroads, we need to reassure them that
knowledge of language is and can be a far different path.
Craig
Craig and Kathryn,
>
> For some reason the last two messages I've gotten on this thread have been
> formatted without line breaks.
>
> There's a matter that's come up once or twice in this thread that I'd like
> more information on. I'm not a writing teacher, and I don't know the
> literature on the teaching of writing like others on the list do.
>
> The question is how students from other dialect backgrounds master the
> conventions of FSWE. I've heard it said, and Craig has hinted at it, that
> as a writer revises the content and argument of a paper that has both
> rhetorical and formal problems, the formal problems disappear as the
> rhetorical structure and content improve. I'm not sure I've summarized
> the position accurately.
>
> I don't know how or if this works. It sounds on the one hand like a dodge
> around teaching the conventions of FSWE, or, perhaps, wishful thinking. I
> can believe that sentences improve and that even some usage improves as
> the writer gives more serious attention to the essay and takes his/her
> writing more seriously. But I don't believe that the sort of professional
> polish we'd like to bring developing writers to can arise without some
> overt teaching.
>
> I won't develop this Fragestellung further, because I'd rather read what
> people who know what they're talking about on this have to say.
>
> Herb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig
> Hancock
> Sent: Fri 1/6/2006 1:26 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: using "before"
>
> Kathryn,
> You're right; I wasn't responding point by point, but trying to step
> back a bit and discuss how a term like "gatekeeper" might look to
> someone on the front lines of composition. I didn't mean to imply that
> anyone who is a prescriptivist is automatically prejudiced. But I do
> want to say that the SYSTEM is racist in effect and we need to speak out
> about that more than we do. Those of us who feel that we are expected to
> get students ready to meet these prescriptive standards can feel caught
> between a rock and a hard place. We do damage when we impose the
> standards and damage when we ignore them. That's the point Gretchen was
> trying to make, I think, in her post. We don't feel we are being given
> the authority to determine sensible standards for ourselves, but are
> asked to impose someone else's.
> Herb's post is particularly helpful because he points out that one
> person's "standard English" is not the same as another's. I think some
> teachers feel we need to help students avoid any possible error. Who
> knows what will show up on standardized tests? If these are high-stakes
> tests, shouldn't we cover all the bases? There's a terrible logic to
> that, and no one wins.
> There is a prescriptivist tradition within English, and I don't
> think it's helpful to imply that anyone interested in "improving
> language use" is therefore a prescriptivist. Whole language proponents
> tend to argue that language automatically improves in a "language rich
> environment." I have problems with that because it doesn't deal with
> knowledge about language or address the issue of its usefulness. I
> would add "functional" (not just descriptive versus prescriptive) to the
> discussion. Instead of asking whether something is correct, we can ask
> if it is effective. Before we can ask that, we need to know what the
> writer is trying to accomplish. (In Australia, this is mediated through
> a focus on genre. Functional approaches are being introduced in other
> parts of the world.)
> I certainly do want my students to be "validated" and "respected",
> but I'm uncomfortable with the touchy/feeley implications of that. (You
> probably don't intend that.) Part of respecting my students means
> having a high sense of their potential, which means I am usually unhappy
> with their early drafts and early papers. For the most part, they
> haven't thought them through. For the most part, other teachers haven't
> pushed them very hard. But I have found that becoming interested in
> their writing gives them an incentive to go back and take it a step or
> two further. When they invest in the writing, it often improves rapidly.
> Students don't invest when we ask them to "correct." Students should
> be asked to revise simply because good writers revise. Prescriptive
> teachers often subvert this process with excess emphasis on correctness.
> This argument dates back to the sixties, process versus product
> approaches, but I think it's still a viable distinction. Prescriptive
> approaches tend to put excess emphasis on superficial aspects of the
> product. If you ask students about revising, they will often talk about
> "correcting."
> The most functional part of standard English (to the extent that a
> standard exists) is the punctuation system. I'm very much in favor of
> teaching far more grammar than we do, and one advantage to that would be
> that students would actually know what we are talking about when we talk
> about standard punctuation practices. A comprehensive knowledge about
> language can be put to use in so many ways, and I suspect we are in
> solid agreement about that. In that sense, though, we are at odds with
> both camps, the prescriptive (which often corrects without explanation),
> and the progressive, which assumes that any attention to grammar is
> regressive. We need ways to assure the prescriptivists that we have
> high standards and ways to assure the progressives that we share
> progressive goals, like empowerment, diversity, and inclusiveness.
> You and I have had lively and interesting talks about the
> conservative nature of the publishing industry. I would love to see
> "advice about language use" that respects the innate ability of the
> common language user and is more deeply grounded in the science of
> language. I think we have a unique opportunity to address that in the
> ATEG Scope and Sequence project. I also think the world is ready for
> instructional materials that rise to this challenge, including a new
> kind of handbook. A publisher willing to invest in that risk may be in a
> unique position as inevitable change moves forward. If you offer a
> better mousetrap, the market will follow.
> I want to say, also, that it's a delight to talk this through. If I
> thought it were just a matter of arguing for throwing out 2-5% of the
> prescriptive rules, we would have no reason to disagree. It could very
> well be that some attempts to "improve language use" are having the
> opposite effect. I'm arguing for a very different approach. You are
> being gracious in looking for a clarification of position.
>
> Craig
>
>
> Rogers, Kathryn (HRW-ATX) wrote:
>
>> I don't get the sense that this post is a response to any of the
>> points that I made, particularly. I suspect that, as in most
>> descriptivist/prescriptivist melees (how did I get here?), we are
>> using vocabulary differently. For instance, I use "prescriptivist" to
>> mean "someone who makes prescriptions for improving language use." I
>> believe that you mean "a prejudiced person who wields linguistic
>> information to 'make people feel inadequate.'" I think that, by
>> definition, all prescriptivists make prescriptions for improving
>> language use. Certainly *some* do so in a way that is prejudicial or
>> intimidating, but I don't think it's a definitional characteristic. So
>> when I say, I think you may be to some degree a prescriptivist, I
>> don't accuse you of being Cerberus to the Tower of the Privileged, and
>> no offense is intended.
>>
>>
>>
>> And you don't care to "correct" writing but to "revise" it. Absolutely
>> okay by me. I don't think the shift removes the activity from the
>> realm of prescription, though. Revision is certainly not, as I
>> understand it, a descriptive activity. I think what you're advocating
>> is a kind of prescriptivism that (1) ignores a small subset of
>> language "rules" that you and many others find arbitrary/dysfunctional
>> and (2) makes sure students feel validated and respected. Do I
>> misunderstand?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Kathryn
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 9:27 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: using "before"
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb, Kathryn,
>> You guys do a nice job of arguing for semi reluctant
>> adherence/resignation to the current status quo. I enjoy tilting at
>> windmills, so I'll keep at it a bit longer.
>> "Gatekeeper" has a different ring to me than it would to most
>> people because I work with non-traditional students and know the way
>> it has been used in the past. Shaughnessy calls it the first stage in
>> her taxonomy of maturation for developmental teachers. (She calls it
>> "Guarding the Tower"). A teacher decides he/she wants to protect the
>> academy from the barbarian hordes (in her case, open admissions
>> students) who would degrade it. Students are tested at entry and put
>> into "remedial" classes largely on the basis of surface error. They
>> are then grilled and drilled in the hopes of getting them to write
>> correct sentences, after which they will be taught how to write
>> correct paragraphs, correct short themes, and so on, with a terrible
>> success rate that the teacher chalks up to innate lack of ability. At
>> any rate, the academy is protected from the perceived assault on
>> standards. A much better approach is to simply assume their ability,
>> take their writing seriously, and watch the natural changes that occur
>> as they learn to shape their writing in meaningful and effective ways.
>> Instead of saying we will take them seriously when their language
>> changes, we can take them seriously from the start and achieve much
>> more rapid change as a result. This partly requires a serious
>> listening to life stories rather different from our own and
>> recognizing enormously valuable insights that come from differing
>> perspectives.
>> Of course, these students suffer more than others from our failure
>> to teach seriously about language. They come to us with very little
>> metalanguage to work with. Their language has been "corrected", but
>> not explained.
>> If we resign ourselves to the inevitability that our student
>> writers will be held to dysfunctional standards, we are abdicating our
>> responsibility, which is to use our expertise wisely. I'm surprised
>> at the number of studies of "error" (such as the Connors-Lunsford)
>> that note that certain dialect "errors" are the most heavily
>> stigmatized without reaching the conclusion that we are prey to
>> heavily racist practices that spill over into language. All the
>> burden seems to be placed on the students to change to fit these kinds
>> of reprehensible prejudices. It certainly does make sense to prepare
>> students to face an unfriendly world, but we can tell the truth about
>> it much more than we do.
>> Two treatments of this that I find very sensible are in Ed
>> Schuster's Breaking the Rules... and "The Language Maven" chapter in
>> Steven Pinker's The Language Instinct. Both talk about what Schuster
>> calls "mythrules" and their tendency to perpetuate themselves
>> precisely because we expect them to continue. "Most", according to
>> Pinker, "make no sense at any level... The rules conform neither to
>> logic nor to tradition, and if they were ever followed they would
>> force writers into fuzzy, clumsy, wordy, ambiguous, incomprehensible
>> prose, in which certain thoughts are not expressible at all" (385).
>> Pinker criticizes these self-proclaimed experts for two principal
>> "blind spots" : "One is a gross underestimation of the linguistic
>> wherewithal of the common person....The other...is their complete
>> ignorance of the modern science of language" (412-13).
>> Some of the studies of grammar instruction seem to show that they
>> impede the teaching of writing, and that may very well be best
>> understood in relation to the above. In order to write well, you have
>> to have some trust that the language you have available is up to the
>> task. Prescriptivists tend to make people feel inadequate. Tell them
>> you are a grammarian, and many people will become instantly
>> uncomfortable, tell you their grammar is terrible, and that they'll
>> have to watch what they say. In other words, they are likely to shut
>> up. The other way that it impedes is that it is an arbitrary
>> obstacle. Instead of spending time focused on whether the writing
>> accomplishes more important goals, we get distracted into attending to
>> surface features. The writing gets corrected rather than revised.
>> This other grammar thing (prescriptive) takes over. There are solid
>> studies that show this.
>> Of course, the more knowledgeable ALL of us are about grammar, the
>> less likely it is that this sort of thing will happen. This should
>> include a healthy respect for the linguistic sophistication of the
>> everyday language user and a healthy distrust of the self-proclaimed
>> experts. It should also include a serious, sustained look at how
>> meaning happens within the grammar of the language. Sentences are
>> very flexible in the information they contain and in the way that
>> information is organized. In an effective text, they work in harmony
>> with other sentences and in harmony with a writer's evolving purposes.
>> We can develop an understanding of grammar that attends to this and
>> helps us accomplish the real work of writing.
>> Instead of testing how people behave, we should test what they
>> KNOW. You can certainly make a case that it's not TEACHING of
>> grammar, but IGNORANCE about grammar that does the most harm.
>> I didn't respond directly to Gretchen's thoughtful post, so I'll
>> add a point here. We need to do something to empower teachers like
>> her, who want to do what's sensible but feel caught up within a
>> dysfunctional system. I know what it's like to feel that every error
>> a student makes for another teacher reflects back on the writing
>> teacher who let them through the gate. Even when our focus is mostly
>> on the student (as it seems to be for Gretchen) we can feel that our
>> hands are tied, that we need to get them ready to jump through hoops
>> we never would have invented on our own. We need to speak up at the
>> highest levels if we hope to free up dedicated teachers and influence
>> thoughtful change.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
>>
>>Kathryn and Craig,
>>
>>
>>
>>What we seem to be talking about here is Formal Standard Written English,
>> a register that college students are required to master and that high
>> school students intending to go to college need to be well on the way
>> towards mastering. It is the great gate-keeper in American society. My
>> college students see this immediately when I ask them to think back to
>> high school classmates who didn't succeed at English and where they were
>> now. We talk about this, and it's clear to all that there are notable
>> exceptions to the rule, but that overwhelmingly success at FSWE is a
>> prerequisite to other socio-economic success.
>>
>>
>>
>>The problem with this is that FSWE is constructed in different ways by
>> different people, be they teachers, editors, employers, school board
>> members, or parents. Not everyone's FSWE is the same but frequently each
>> person believes firmly that his or her FSWE is correct and widely
>> accepted. We can't teach to all of the which/that, stranded preposition,
>> passive voice, ... preferences, so we have to make sure our students know
>> that these preferences exist and that they may have to be sensitive to
>> them.
>>
>>
>>
>>And, by the way, they aren't all old. As we've discussed before, the ban
>> on possessive antecedents, which it the news a few years ago, shows up
>> for the first time in the 1940s and than spreads to nearly all the
>> standard grammar books, even though even the writers who tout it violate
>> it often in the same work. Sentence-initially "hopefully" isn't much
>> older. These are more matters of fashion and of societal myth as matters
>> of grammar.
>>
>>
>>
>>Herb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hey, Craig,
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks for your thoughtful response. I think I'll try pasting in some of
>>
>>your points and replying to them individually--
>>
>>
>>
>>Craig: " . . . the function of case has been
>>
>>shifting toward the pragmatic. Is that a weakening of the language,
>>
>>something we should fight against? . . . At any rate, we
>>
>>might be taking arms against the sea if we oppose it."
>>
>>
>>
>>Kathryn: I 100% agree with you about the folly of fighting language
>>
>>change--both because it would be a lost cause and because often language
>>
>>changes specifically to meet users' changing communicative needs. But as
>>
>>long as many language users (especially cultural gatekeepers) still
>>
>>value the "old" conventions and follow them, it's helpful to know what
>>
>>those old conventions are, how to follow them, and when it is wise to do
>>
>>so (or when the conventions will improve clarity, communication,
>>
>>richness, etc.). That's not a matter of fighting change; it's a matter
>>
>>of understanding/navigating it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Craig: "I have a great deal of difficulty with the notion of "standard
>>
>>English." We tend to talk about it as if it were set in stone and was
>>
>>actually existing somewhere to be studied and emulated."
>>
>>
>>
>>Kathryn: I don't know anyone who is savvy about language who thinks that
>>
>>standard English is static. One can study and emulate a set of
>>
>>conventions without having to have them set in stone. After all, one can
>>
>>study art or emulate the work of particular artists even as what our
>>
>>culture regards as valuable art changes constantly.
>>
>> But again, I didn't raise the issue of "standard English" as a
>>
>>call to pedantic arms (a call to red pens?) but to wonder whether
>>
>>employing a standard or working to improve student writing doesn't
>>
>>necessarily *mean* to some degree being a prescriptivist and/or a
>>
>>proponent of standard English. It doesn't mean that you employ every
>>
>>prescription of Fowler's or that you fall into lockstep with the,
>>
>>whatever, 2-5% of conventions of standard English that strike you as
>>
>>arbitrary and undemocratic. But any time we accept that writing can be
>>
>>improved or that some usages are "better" (clearer, more
>>
>>"natural"-sounding, whatever) than others, we venture out of the bounds
>>
>>of pure descriptivism, no?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Craig: "But that's a far cry from saying that a dialect is inherently
>>
>>incorrect."
>>
>>
>>
>>Kathryn: I agree that it doesn't make sense to talk about dialects or
>>
>>registers being "inherently" correct (or "inherently" aesthetically
>>
>>pleasing or appropriate). Language use is clearly contextual.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"I suspect we get to the same place from opposite directions, but I
>>
>>also think the direction you come from has enormous repercussions.
>>
>>Craig"
>>
>>
>>
>>Likewise.
>>
>>Best to you,
>>
>>Kathryn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>
>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
