Dalia,
I was quite intrigued with the previous mails.  Just an observation on my
part.
I have been taught that the past perfect is used when an action has occured
on a regular or periodical basis.

Eg: I have walked to school everyday/since I was 3.

The simple past is usually used when you have an action which has occured
only once or infrequently.

Eg: I walked to school this morning.

This may not necessarily mean that I walk to school everyday, but it implies
that as a deviation from routine I walked.
Lalitha Sivamani

Eg: I walked to school today.  (Implying that I may not necessarily walk
everyday).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 1:47 AM
Subject: Re: Verb Tense


Dalia,
I think that's a pretty good tip, and it's clearer to me now.  I think it
would work with most examples, but as you imply, there are some exceptions.
I like your tip as a teaching tool, but let me play with it a moment.

For instance: "How long have you lived in Mobile?"  "I have lived here since
1998."

The quesitoner uses present perfect and is very interested in 'time' (the
amount spent living in Mobile) or, put another way, in "when" the action
took place (when the person first started living here in Mobile, though the
perfect also shows interest in the fact that the listener still lives at the
present time in Mobile).  The respondent similarly uses present perfect to
indicate this when-ness and, I think, the time period (1998-present).

In "Sue has eaten", your test works pretty well, for the speaker is not
interested in a time period or in when Sue ate.  But change it to "Sue has
eaten eggs for breakfast for the last 20 years" and the speaker is again
interested in when Sue started a paricular act and how long it has been
going on.

In "I have always relied on the kindness of strangers," Stella is--I think--
emphasizing when she relied--always in the past & unto this moment in time
(and by implicature if you want to go there--in the future).

In all examples, we're dealing with time periods that are (1) known or
knowable and (2) important--even though your test indicates that these two
variables are not very relevant to using the perfect.   Granted, these time
issues are made important and known in the context of the sentences and
through the inter-related use of other parts of these sentences, but
students often have to tangle with such sentences and might have a hard time
divorcing the verb tense from these other parts.

Just a few rambling thoughts I have had on reading the posts!

larry



>>> Dalia Stein <[log in to unmask]> - 4/5/01 2:53 PM >>>
Larry,
When using the Present Perfect, you're not normally interested in "when" the
action took place, all you're interested in is that it has already happened
sometimes before now - the time is not important. So ask your pupils, "Did
you mention the time? Do you know when the action happened? Is it important
to you to mention the time?"  If so, then use the Past Simple. If the time
is unknown or not important, use the perfect.
Dalia
----- Original Message -----
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: Verb Tense


> Dalia,
> I'm probably just dense today, but I'm not sure I'm tracking.  Is the test
whether students can answer a 'when' question about the sentence in
question, or is it whether than can ask a 'when' question using the sentence
in question?  Or either?    Maybe another example would help me.
>
> larry
>
>
>
>
> >>> Dalia Stein <[log in to unmask]> - 4/5/01 11:34 AM >>>
> Brock,
> One way to help students distinguish between Present Perfect and the
Simple
> Past is to see if they can answer the question "when?" If they can't, they
> ought to use the Present Perfect. You don't use the perfect to ask "When
> have you lived there?"
> Dalia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 8:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Verb Tense
>
>
> > Brock,
> > That's also a good example of an instance when the simple past tense
> definitely means something very different from the present perfect ("I
lived
> here for 5 years" means you don't live here anymore, though your example
> below means you're still hanging in here).
> >
> > I don't believe most examples of the perfect are much different
> content-wise from past tense, so yours is a great example for students to
> understand that the perfect is sometimes essential.
> >
> > larry
> >
> >
> >
> > >>> "Haussamen, Brock" <[log in to unmask]> - 4/3/01 10:59 AM >>>
> > Gretchen,
> >     An example of the present perfect tense that is clearly not
> "completed":
> >
> >                 I have lived here for five years.
> >
> > A speaker might use the progressive--I have been living here for five
> > years--but not necessarily.
> >
> > Brock
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gretchen Lee [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 11:28 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Verb Tense
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 4/2/2001 8:00:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > [log in to unmask] writes:<<  It
> >  might be interesting to change that play-by-play to a newspaper report.
> >>
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestion.  My students write newspaper articles all the
> > time.  We covered the election in history by producing a newspaper, and
> it's
> > one of the most popular choices in my reader's workshop ("Turn an event
in
> > the book into a newspaper article or write an editorial on an issue that
> was
> > presented in the book you read").
> >
> > They are very comfortable with the format which makes it ideal for this
> kind
> > of assignment.  I'll try it.  It's certainly simpler than the
advertising
> > poster for the time travel agency I was toying with ("Book your trip to
> the
> > Coliseum today!  Scores of people are enjoying this exciting trip each
and
> > every minute!  By this time next week, you will have been thrilled and
> > excited by the gladiators who fought centuries ago . . . .")
> >
> > Gretchen in San Jose
> > [log in to unmask]
> >
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