Bruce,
I would not be concerned about the standards of anyone who is so concerned about the past perfect and yet mixes metaphors without any problem at all.
"The good news is that you stepped up to the plate and took a swing at it. The bad news is that there are three questions and you did not answer three questions. You did not even answer one of the three. Grade: F."
As a Cubs fan, I'm glad grades and baseball have no relationship with each other.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
>>> Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> 11/9/2009 1:44 PM >>>
I'm sorry my answers were not up to the standards you expected.
First question: Which word should . . . "had" or "did"
First answer: Neither one should.
Second question: What rule applies and what is the explanation . . . a student . . .
Second answer: No rule applies for a student of syntax because this is a question of style or register as it relates to semantic interpretation.
Third question: What rule applies or what is the explanation . . . a student . . .
Third answer: The explanation to a student (one who is willing to study) is adequate, provided the grammatical meanings of "simple" and "past" and "perfect" are understood. The novice in grammar, of course, does not need to know this answer. He needs to recognize "simple past" and "past perfect" forms.
I would advise a teacher not to throw curve balls to other teachers; but I guess anyone can make up whatever rules of the game he wants as long as he is in the position of distributing grades. Maybe the real successful teachers of grammar can instruct the rest of the linguistic world on these kinds of questions. Perhaps they will need an open book test or some environment that allows the experienced teacher to instruct them on the "correct" response and why it is correct.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:53 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Taking Allie to breakfast
The good news is that you stepped up to the plate and took a swing at it. The bad news is that there are three questions and you did not answer three questions. You did not even answer one of the three. Grade: F.
If you opt for the always-available make-up test, consider the questions carefully and then answer them carefully. (Hint: there is no past perfect option.)
There is not an age-appropriate grammar student alive who could understand what you wrote.
(Aren't there any grammar teachers out there?)
.brad.09nov09.
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Taking Allie to breakfast
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 9:40 AM
Neither choice is wrong. On the surface, my first impression is as follows: 1) The simple past seems to work here as an indication that the narrator thinks we should be acquainted with the event (a night-before dragging mentioned previously). It might also be a one-time exceptional counter-example to her otherwise careful habits of neatness. In this reading things get better after breakfast and in the short term. 2) The past perfect also works, but seems to indicate that the narrator wants to keep the sequence of events straight, like he intends to follow up on her progress toward a less unkempt attitude. The end of paragraph suggests that this latter choice would make it a longer process so that we should expect events of a similar nature (falling in with pirates?) to follow.
Both choices place the dragging event in the past, before breakfast. The simple past does not make the time sequence explicit, so somehow not important. The reader is left to infer the sequence from the context. The past perfect places the two events in sequence explicitly, so invites the reader to note that the before and after situations are somehow important as they relate to each other in time.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:54 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Taking Allie to breakfast
Brimstone, by Robert B. Parker, c.2009.
Chapter 7
WE TOOK ALLIE TO BREAKFAST in the cook tent. With her
dress washed and her hair combed, she looked a little better
than she ___ when we dragged her out of the Barbary Coast
Cafe'. But she didn't look good. <end of paragraph>
Grammarians,
Which word should fill the blank in the quote above, had or did? ("looked" is an obvious possibility but Parker didn't use it.)
What rule applies to the choice and/or what is the explanation you might give a student for the choice?
.brad.08nov09.
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