One request and Two Points:

Request: I would like to get Tim Hadley's dissertation, is it available on the web?

Point 1.  A must read for this project is David Mulroy's, _The War on Grammar_.  If it were not cited and summarized appropriately ATEG would look like it wasn't doing its homework.  The facts and figures he brings to bear on the downturn of FL skills, literacy skills and so on coupled with deeply insightful, relevant, and pithy insights into the source of the problem and its effects are too important to ignore and we must give credit to his being there first of course.

Point 2.  The SAT now requires 45 Grammar questions based on spelling, punctuation, subj. verb agreement and so forth, all the things that require teaching the full range of parts of speech, parts of the sentene and sentences types as well as punctuation and spelling.  I am sure that pressure from parents, government, and school administrators is building already on secondary school educators to get this taught and I am sure the secondary schools will soon be putting pressure on the elementary schools as well.  So, from this point of view we have (finally) a downhill slope and an easy battle.  

A properly written letter to the Deparment of Education, accrediting authorities of all levels, teachers unions (from the point of view of jobs and work lost), and so forth would be effective.  This should be done before any direct approach is made to appropriate NCTE board so that they can be copied on the letter that gets sent to the NCTE and the NCTE response duly noted to these authorites.  Sympathetic authors, editors, and publishers can also be included.  There may also be individual Congressmen, Senators, and DOE officials who would like to comment.  It would also be possible to use the same letter to seek support from groups like TESOL, LSA, ISLS, ACTFL, NAFSA, and so on.  TESOL may actually back the NCTE position as may some of the others, but if the request was made based on a letter to DOE, and on the realities of the new SAT, there may be a de rigeur sort of support coming from them.  For all of them, the anti-grammar attitude has not produced more students or more programs -- though it has produced a political position and jobs for those who just don't their grammar.  

We have to admit though that medical programs no longer have language requirements, many Ph.D. programs no longer require two langauges, and on and on -- ESL, FL, traditional grammar and so on should all be working together to perserve the entire basis of intellectual flexibility and cultural sensitivity in those grammar based fields.  I am convinced that the reason we lost those programs and the reason the NCTE position is as it is, is because there is a large contigent people of people who did not want to get the FL training or get the grammar training but they had some political skills and made a movement of scapegoating the better qualifed and the more patient grammar FL group.  I remember in the 70's and 80s, there was lots of impatience to get graduate degrees and get "out there" and make a mark.  They were the advocates for getting rid of FL programs, grammar and so forth.  Those same people later played a big role in the development of stricter writing requirements and remedial programs.  Programs that Mulroy seems to argue would not have been necessary if grammar had been correctly taught earlier.  There is no reason to think that a literature teacher who does not know grammar is in any way better than one who does -- in fact it is far more reasonable to conclude the opposite.  David Mulroy's arguments on the sort of sloppy thinking that accrues among those who do not know grammar must be reviewed for this discussion and cited in any letters or proposals although he is classicist enough not to call it sloppy thinking.  He addresses it in a discussion of the differences between Kant's reflective judgments and determinate judgments -- what Mulroy discusses as a distinction between the ability to make free associations vs the ability to find literal meanings.  (p. 15)

From your response I am not entirely clear of the goal of the Scope and Sequence committee.  It sounds like it is designed to discuss grammar curriculum in general and that the discussion and search for the removal of the NCTE position is incidental.  Would it be appropriate for the Scope and Sequence group to make a subcommittee or a spin off that was specifically for the purpose of addressing and motivating change in the 1985 NCTE position? I think to be effective it might need that sort of effort.  Planning, research, and then the approach which may actually be a bit of a battle.    

Finally, we should require that ANYONE who wants to weigh in on this discussion should first give us their official SAT score on that grammar test.  

Phil Bralich
Assistant Professor
Defense Language Institute
Foreign Language Center

-----Original Message-----
>From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Feb 3, 2006 5:51 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: That Reprehensible NCTE Position Statement
>
>Phil,
>    I want to echo Paul's points and give more info on Scope and
>Sequence.>The project is an attempt to give thoughtful, professional
>advice about the teaching of grammar for anyone looking for an
>alternative to minimalist approaches.  We were given a large part of
>the ATEG conference last summer and at that point approached the task
>on a more general level, coming to a consensus of what the advice
>should entail. Tim Hadley, whose dissertation has focused on the NCTE
>position, gave us a fine talk on its shortcomings, and he has agreed
>to be the point person for our own official response.  I suspect he
>would be very happy to have you involved.  My own sense is that we
>should put most of our energy on our own recommendations, that we
>should stop arguing for the need for a grammar and simply advocate a
>sensible one.  But it's clear that people will bring up the supposedly
>conclusive NCTE position, and we should have a direct response to it.
>    Once again, we have been given substantial time at the ATEG conference
>for this project.  My hope is that we can roll up our sleeves and fill
>in the details, not just take positions on the kind of grammar that
>should be taught, but make recommendations about the SCOPE (what
>should be covered) and SEQUENCE (when), teacher training, more
>reasonable assessment practices, and so on.  We have proposed a panel
>for next year's NCTE (without using grammar in the title, but focused
>on these issues from the perspective of state standards, assessments,
>teacher training, and the disjunction among them. Martha Kolln and I
>are listed as presenters of the Scope and Sequence report, and it
>would be nice to have a fait accompli to present.  If not, we can talk
>about current state of the project.)
>    Paul is more optimistic than I am about progress through NCTE.  I
>think they deeply believe that direct instruction in grammar is
>harmful, and anyone who advocates otherwise is a threat to progressive
>education. Most English teachers are trained to teach literature. 
>It's hard to talk about grammar with people who have very little
>background in it. But I agree very much with what i take to be your
>position, that we should present a clear and thoughtful alternative. 
>If a school system in Ohio wants to change, they will have a
>professional position statement to help them out and a recommended
>program.  If we wait for the blessing of NCTE, it will probably never
>happen. But the time is right.  There's a grassroots interest in this,
>in part because NCTE hasn't adequately responded to the challenge of
>No child Left Behind.
>    The big plan is to get lots of people involved and to delegate
>drafting of the big parts of it.  You are most welcome.
>
>Craig
>Phil,
>>
>>   We've been working on this issue for some time and have made a good deal
>> of progress. There is still a long way to go, and that's part of what
>> ATEG is all about. We did get NCTE to publish our book, Grammar Alive: A
>> Guide for Teachers, a couple of years ago. We've been gradually
>> improving our posture at the NCTE Conventions, too.
>>
>>   A few years back, NCTE began to backpeddle a bit on their 1985 position
>> by including our "Questions and Answers" page on it's website; you might
>> want ot check it out:
>> http://www.ncte.org/about/over/positions/category/gram/107646.htm.
>>
>>   Perhaps you'd like to participate in the Scope and Sequence group that
>> Craig Hancock started; we could definitely use more assistance.
>>
>>   Welcome into the fray,
>>
>>   Paul D.
>>
>> Phil Bralich <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>   As everyone here is aware, the NCTE 1985 Position Statement about
>> teaching
>> grammar advocates against it to the detrimant of all language training
>> native or foreign. While it seems to couch its criticism in the form of
>> the supposed lack of benefit that grammar study has on writing alone, it
>> seems to presuppose that there would be no other sufficiently useful
>> reason for teaching grammar. The position thereby has the effect of
>> shutting down all grammar teaching.
>>
>> It strikes me that of all the groups that exist in academe today, the one
>> most appropriate to address this embarassment to American education is
>> ATEG. Is there currently a working group within ATEG which specifically
>> addresses this issue with the goal of getting NCTE to renege and replace
>> this statement with something more accurate and more consonant with the
>> wishes of parents and many, many educators, business men and politicians?
>>
>> If there is such a group, I would like to participate. If there is no
>> current group, I would be happy to take responsibility for setting one up,
>> chairing, and spearheading such a group. If there is no current provision
>> within ATEG for this sort of a group, perhaps interested parties could
>> form an informal, ad hoc group, put together some joint research and
>> positions papers, and offer this to ATEG/NCTE at a later point.
>>
>> Phil Bralich
>>
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>
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