The original 4 elements, If I remember right, were earth, air, wind,
and fire. As science refines itself, it has to build off the old
understandings. "Correct" doesn't seem appropriate unless we make the
strange assumption that we have finally arrived at a truth that will
not be subject to refinement or adjustment.
Anyone who knows even a little bit about music knows the relationships
between notes, chords, and so on remain constant when we shift keys. A
"1,6,4,5" chord structure, for example, very common in popular
standards and in R&B, remains the same in its movement whether the
root (starting point)is a,b,c...g, or even g#. A musician also knows
the sixth is likely a minor chord, the 4 and 5 major chords, and they,
themselves, differ in the intervals between notes in predictable ways.
After awhile, you learn, too, that there are fairly standard
substitutions (a flat 5, for example), which remain the same across
keys. A diminished chord functions well as a transition chord for
reasons that can be explained mathematically. And so on. I'm sure
someone better versed in music theory can say much more. I do know
when I play that it's fun to try out formal possibilities and see
where they lead. Sometimes the results seem quite beautiful. Other
times, they come across as merely mechanical. That can be true of
language play as well. As a result, I think music is not MERELY a
system of sound forms, but much more is in play. It seems more
directly attuned to human emotion. It is an "objective correlative"
for feelings in the sense that it doesn't name them, but evokes them
in the listener.
Language has a musical side as well. Intonation is part of our
meaning-making system. Language is built out of alterations in sound
and silence and in stressed/unstressed articulation, which we can hear
quite readily in traditional poetry but is certainly always present.
I would tend to think of music and math as subcategories of language.
If we try to describe language itself as a mathematical system, we
will miss a great deal. If we try to reduce grammar down to a formal
system, we may be misrepresenting what we are trying to describe.
Craig
Ed,
>
> Having spent several years in the field doing fieldwork on several
> Nigerian languages, I couldn't agree with you more. I think what we
> forget in any discussion of a science of language is that language is a
> body of natural phenomena, highly transitory natural phenomena. As you
> and many of us are aware, Hockett did us all a very useful service with
> his design features for language that set broad parameters for what this
> body of phenomena may be like, but he doesn't provide us with a theory of
> language. The science comes in in our attempt to understand these
> phenomena and to provide orderly, testable descriptions of them.
> Linguists disagree on how many phonemes or parts of speech English has,
> because phonemes and parts of speech are not natural phenomena; they are
> scientific constructs developed to put order to what we observe and to
> allow us to make predictions about what we might expect to find in a
> language and what we might expect not to find, predictions that are
> themselves empirically testable. Linguistic scientists-grammarians-don't
> agree on elements of descriptions of language just as physical scientists
> don't agree on the number, variety, and nature of particles, how many
> dimensions there are, whether strings underlie the structure of matter and
> energy, and lots of other things. Such disagreement doesn't invalidate
> the science; it testifies to the vigor and rigor of it.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster
> Sent: Sunday, December 12, 2010 9:43 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: a few more thoughts about science
>
> Driving home from downtown last night, I heard some "serial music" on the
> radio. The vocalist must have repeated "Hold that tiger" at least 20
> times, and the same melody was repeated many more times. It wasn't a
> contemporary music station, though: it was blues or jazz.
> By the way, I don't see how anyone who has ever done informant work or
> worked "in the field" with a totally unfamiliar foreign language could
> ever think of linguistics as anything but a science.
>
> Ed S
>
> On Dec 12, 2010, at 12:01 AM, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote:
>
>
> Our tastes in music, apparently, aren't that far apart. I'm partial to
> Berg and especially his violin concerto with its musical excursus on "Es
> ist genug."
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 12:02 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a few more thoughts about science
>
> Well, I think there's a connection with higher mathematics, perhaps, but
> then I think that higher math is probably a kind of language, too.
>
> Regarding serial music, the best of it is more inspired than traditional
> views seem to suggest; the mathematics connection has often been used to
> denigrate it and suggest it is "unartistic," which is far from true (I'm
> thinking of the music of Webern and Boulez, in particular, which I find
> quite inspired and not at all "clinical"). I admit that it is an acquired
> taste, however. Perhaps the same could be said of some modern literature
> ... ?
>
> Paul
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 11:37:33 AM
> Subject: Re: a few more thoughts about science
> I had a music composition grad student working for me for a while, and he
> insisted that music was mathematics. But then he composed nothing but
> serial music, so perhaps he had a point. Pythagoras, by the way, would
> have agreed with you-and my grad student.
>
> Herb
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul E. Doniger
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 9:30 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a few more thoughts about science
>
> I've always thought of grammar as something akin to Music Theory, which is
> also a flexible system and is used to describe rather than proscribe what
> is done in composing and performing music. There's an aura of science
> about it (music theory, that is), but it really isn't a science as far as
> I can tell. I think there are some similarities to higher mathematics,
> but I don't know enough about that to make the analogy.
>
> Any thoughts on this idea?
>
> Paul
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
> fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Sat, December 11, 2010 8:49:26 AM
> Subject: Re: a few more thoughts about science
>
> Like others who have commented on parts of speech, I've always taught them
> as prototypes. Rodney Huddleston has written on the properties of
> auxiliary verbs and shows, with a detailed chart, how different modals,
> for example, differ significantly in their properties. Certainly one
> starts with the prototypical definition and then adds complexity as
> students mature. Confusion begins when people think the prototype defines
> the entire class. The natural world, of which language is a part and that
> we use science to study, is rarely that simple.
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On
> Behalf Of Marie-Pierre Jouannaud
> Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2010 4:42 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: a few more thoughts about science
>
> Thank you Beth. This is a wonderful article!
>
> Marie
>
>> The issue of how many parts of speech there are reminds me of this Web
>> of Language column by Dennis Baron, in which he points out that France
>> recognizes fewer continents than we do. I had no idea! The column is
>> tangential to this discussion, but worth a read to see how the French
>> schoolteacher sets him straight: http://illinois.edu/db/view/25/14332
>>
>> Beth
>>
>>>>> Marie-Pierre Jouannaud
>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>> 12/10/10 5:22 AM >>>
>> Susan,
>>
>> Perhaps the question "How many parts of speech are there?" is not the
>> right question.
>>
>> It's like asking "How many colors does a rainbow have?". Just because
>> you learn in school that there are 7 doesn't mean that it is in fact
>> the case. There is no right answer to this question, but it doesn't
>> mean that optics is not a science.
>>
>> What if words are like colors, on a spectrum? Some points are more
>> salient: typical nouns, verbs, adjectives, etc... But there are plenty
>> of in-between cases. Only you don't want to go into all those details
>> at the beginning levels, so you present a simplified account. (That's
>> why you won't find definitions that will satisfy everybody: if you
>> only describe the prototypical cases, less central elements will be
>> excluded form your definition; but if you try to include them in you
>> definition, it will become too complex/vague to be useful.)
>>
>> Do you agree that words cannot in principle be divided into discrete
>> categories?
>> Do you agree that the fact that they cannot be divided into discrete
>> categories doesn't imply that linguistics is not a science?
>>
>> Marie
>>
>>
>>> I think you have made a nice distinction between hard and social
>>> science. With the social sciences the value of an explanation can be
>>> relative: how many parts of speech are there? But science doesn't
>>> care whether an explanation is more useful; it is either a correct
>>> explanation or a wrong one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 9, 2010, at 5:13 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I think "a good scientist is as certain as the current evidence
>>>> allows" is something I can live with. I don't think you stop being
>>>> skeptical because the evidence backs a position up, but that's not a
>>>> big issue.
>>>> Whether we think of it as science or not, knowledge accumulates
>>>> within a discipline like linguistics in large part because of the
>>>> shared exploration of people in the discipline. Either it deepens
>>>> our understanding of language (satisfies us in that way) or it fails
>>>> to do so. I would hate to think that knowledge about language is
>>>> just up to the individual and that everyone's views are equal.
>>>> Perhaps that's not what you are advocating. To me, it's not just
>>>> science, but the study of language that shouldn't be thought of as a
>>>> free for all. Some explanations are decidedly more useful than
>>>> others. We have to move toward that goal somewhat collegially.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Scientists have been characterized (present, perfect, passive) as
>>>>>
>>>>>> "certain" in some previous posts, but I would assert the
>>>>>> opposite--a good scientist tends to be skeptical of all positions,
>>>>>> perhaps especially his/her own.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, this is not accurate. A good scientist is as certain as the
>>>>> current evidence allows. She is not more skeptical of her own
>>>>> position simply because it is her own. It only became her own
>>>>> position BECAUSE of the amount of evidence she has found in its
>>>>> favor.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you probably meant to describe is a scientist's theory. She
>>>>> should work just as hard disproving her theory as proving it.
>>>>> However, in the end, we are human and a good scientist knows this
>>>>> and so relies on peer review BECAUSE she knows she might be partial
>>>>> to her own theory--even though she thought she did her best to
>>>>> disprove it. If her theory passes peer review, then she can be as
>>>>> confident of her theory as anyone else and need not be any more
>>>>> skeptical of it than anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to be describing science as a free-for-all in which all
>>>>> ideas have equal certainty and skepticism. I know you know that is
>>>>> not a true representation. Yet there are degrees of skepticism
>>>>> that you seem to hang on to. These are the same degrees of
>>>>> skepticism that Intelligent Design proponents rely on. They revel
>>>>> in giving science this wimpiness that seem
>>>>> to applaud. Watch out for what you advocate. It can come back to
>>>>> haunt
>>>>> you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Dec 7, 2010, at 9:21 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Science is not just about a careful and systematic approach to
>>>>>> expanding knowledge; it is also a way to share that goal with
>>>>>> other interested parties. That is why we develop academic fields
>>>>>> and subfields. One person cannot simply declare himself right;
>>>>>> positions are subject to peer review.
>>>>>> Scientists have been characterized (present, perfect, passive)
>>>>>> as "certain" in some previous posts, but I would assert the
>>>>>> opposite--a good scientist tends to be skeptical of all positions,
>>>>>> perhaps especially his/her own. Even when evidence seems
>>>>>> overwhelming, as it is for evolution and global warming, a good
>>>>>> scientist presents those as the best current explanation of the
>>>>>> evidence, not as a final and definitive answer. This may seem
>>>>>> wimpy to some, but it is a cornerstone of what good science is all
>>>>>> about.
>>>>>> When someone wants to offer a new way of seeing things within
>>>>>> the academic fields, it is customary to present a Review of the
>>>>>> Literature in some form or another. Those who propose the new way
>>>>>> of seeing things are under the obligation to show that they have
>>>>>> reviewed the current literature and understand it before they
>>>>>> offer something new. That doesn't mean presenting the weaknesses
>>>>>> of that view, but presenting its strengths. The burden, as it
>>>>>> should be, is not on the status quo position, but on the person
>>>>>> who is proposing the new view to explain why it better accounts
>>>>>> for the observed facts.
>>>>>> I don't present this as a post to Brad; like many on the list,
>>>>>> I find discussions with Brad unpleasant and unproductive. But I
>>>>>> think it's important to assert ground rules that can make it
>>>>>> possible for us to discuss issues in a useful way.
>>>>>> It is helpful to know what most experts currently believe
>>>>>> about a topic. We should be able to post that without fear of
>>>>>> attack.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Craig
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/6/2010 9:51 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Karl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sorry you're angry but remember, YOU took it to the list
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and YOU
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are the person who is angry. And YOU are the person who
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> called me a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "troll", which is OK. That's what angry people do. No
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But as long as were here, let's let the list look at your
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> definition
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and let them decide if it is what we (Karl and Brad) are
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for, which is the kind of definition you say "can be found in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> any
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> decent grammar text".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are your words exactly, from 02dec10. "My definition:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The past
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> perfect in English is a compound tense that combines the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> primary
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> past tense with the perfect, which is a secondary tense
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> system. The
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> past perfect prototypicaly functions to locate an event prior
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> second past event."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I replied, (this is exact): "Don't be impatient. We're
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> getting
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> there. The question was, How do you define it? Tell me what
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the past
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> perfect is." And you replied, "The past perfect functions to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> locate
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> an event prior to a second past event". So if I say, "I went
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> store yesterday and bought potatoes", the past perfect
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> functions to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> locate the prior event, going to the store, from the second
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> event,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> buying the potatoes? 'Zat how it works? Or do you want to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> adjust
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> your definition? And you replied, "No, I don't want to change
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> it. It
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> is correct." So, ATEG, here is the definition: "The past
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> perfect
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> functions to locate an event prior to a second past event".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> good or is it not-so-good? Is it what we're looking for? or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> can we
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> do better? (Remember, we're talking about Teaching Grammar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> what this is all about.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> .brad.06dec10.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ------------------------- *From:* Karl Hagen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> *Sent:* Mon, December 6, 2010
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 8:39:21 PM *Subject:* Re: common irregular verbs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pot, meet kettle. Everyone else on the list agrees with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eduard. For
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> my money, the real arrogance is in thinking that you are the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> only
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> one who knows the truth about the perfect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Further, my discussion about the perfect with you was off the
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> list,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and you have just misrepresented what I told you in private
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> entire list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the record, I gave you a definition, and then I corrected
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> your
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> imprecise paraphrase of my definition. I did not back away
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> from it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I should have known that you were too stupid to understand
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> distinction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I stand by my use of the perfect in my last message to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> list. It's Standard English, and the only thing you
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> demonstrate by
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> trying to ridicule it is your complete ineptitude as a judge
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> English grammar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Once again you have demonstrated why you deserve to be
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> shunned, and I
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> deeply regret my folly in writing to you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This will be my last message to you. I am adding you back to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> my idiot
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> filter.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> web
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>>>>>> select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>>> interface
>>>>> at:
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>
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