Linda,
One thing you could explain is that "supposed" can be considered two different words. There's the one that reduces to "sposta," like "wanna," "gotta," "useta." We can say either "We're supposed to arrive at 5:00" or "We're sposta arrive at 5:00." In this sense what is expressed is obligation or expectation. In its other use, as in "I suppose we'll be on time," we can still reduce "suppose" to "I spose we'll be on time." But a passive like "It is commonly supposed that money grows on trees," we can't contract to "it is commonly sposed that money grows on trees." The lexical meaning doesn't allow contraction in the passive as readily as the grammaticalized form does. But that's what we expect of forms as the take on grammatical rather than lexical function.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Linda Comerford
Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 8:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Supposed versus Suppose
Thanks to all of you for your comments regarding my "supposed" question.
However, I still don't know exactly what I should write to the class by way of explanation. They know very little about grammar, its jargon, etc., so I need a simple explanation for them about why the "d" is necessary when "supposed" is not used in the past tense.
I read with interest the passive connection; however, "supposed" can be active too. The class understood my explanation of using "supposed" in the past tense even though we don't actually hear the "d" when we say the word aloud. But I couldn't explain an active present tense sentence like the
following:
I am supposed to provide additional information about this.
Maybe the "to" after it is what also requires what appears to be a past tense form of it?
Thanks for continuing to share whatever thoughts you may have about this.
Linda Comerford
317.786.6404
[log in to unmask]
www.comerfordconsulting.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 11:24 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Supposed versus Suppose
I'd like to pick up on a comment Karl makes. Final coronal stops (/t/ and
/d/) lax in speech and frequently delete, especially before a word initial consonant. This is sometimes called the "ice cream" phenomenon, and there are plenty of examples, including "ice cream," "skim milk," "popcorn," etc., all of which have lost the final coronal marking the past participle. We do this regularly with coronal stops that are final in coda clusters, like "las' night," "nex' week," etc. If we tie this final coronal deletion to the point Craig makes about "useta," "wanna," "oughta," etc., then the commonly used reduced form "sposta" (with long o) fits in nicely as another quasi-modal.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 8:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Supposed versus Suppose
Paul,
I think you're right. Ultimately, this is a confusion based on normal phonological processes. Unless one is being extremely careful and over-articulating one's pronunciation, it's normal not to release the final /d/ of a past-tense verb when the following word is followed by another consonant with the same place of articulation (as is the case with /t/). So students simply don't hear the -ed at the end of the word and therefore reinterpret.
BTW, although "supposed" may have originated as a passive, I wouldn't analyze it as a passive voice in present-day English. I think "supposed"
is now a participial adjective, one that has developed a quasi-modal meaning quite distinct from a passive version of "suppose."
Karl
On 2/19/2011 4:53 PM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
> Is this the same error that I often see among my high school students
> with "used to" being written, "use to?" E.g>, *"I was suppose to do my
> homework on time." and *"I use to always do my homework on time." I
> don't hear the second one as passive.
> Paul
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> *From:* Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Sat, February 19, 2011 6:51:42 PM
> *Subject:* Re: Supposed versus Suppose
>
> Brian,
> I think that is undoubtedly its source. Like any passive, the first
> auxiliary (am, are,was, were) would carry the tense and "supposed"
> would be past participle. But think about how awkward it sounds to say
> "the government supposes me to pay my taxes." It's not so awkward to
> say "the government requires me to pay me taxes" or "obligates me to
> pay my taxes." The alternative possibility is that it has become a
> three word construction that acts like a modal auxiliary. "I am
> supposed to pay my taxes." "I should pay my taxes." "I must pay my
> taxes."
> A close parallel would be "am going to," which started out as meaning
> movement toward a goal (I am going to the park), broadened out as an
> expression of intention (I am going to vote in the next election), and
> now can be used as modal predictor, as parallel to "will" ("It is
> going to rain").
> Other similar constructs would be "ought to" and "have to" and "be
> able to."
> This seems to me another good example of grammaticalization at work.
> Words or phrases can change their function over time, and sometimes
> they will seem to be part way there.
>
> Craig
>
>
> > Isn't it passive voice? If "we are supposed to x," someone (or
> everyone) > supposes that we should and will x, but the identity of
> the supposer isn't > really relevant, so we leave it out by using
> passive voice (in which case > we use "-ed" even in the present
> tense).
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >
> [[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] on behalf
> of Linda Comerford > [[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> > Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 6:07 PM > To:
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject:
> Supposed versus Suppose > > Help!
> >
> > During an oral grammar workshop, somehow the class got into a
> discussion > about the difference between "supposed" and "suppose."
> The participants > didn't pronounce "supposed" with the "d" and had
> assumed the word was > "suppose." We discussed how past tense verbs
> have the "ed" at the end, > whether we enunciate it or not, and
> thought that would suffice. It didn't > because someone pointed out
> that "we are supposed to" is an an example of > a present tense verb
> that still needed the "d" at the end. Okay, I must > admit that
> stumped
me.
> >
> > Further confusion arose when someone contrasted "supposed" with
"suppose"
> > like, "Do you suppose we will ever resolve these questions?" At
> that > point, I wasn't sure we ever would and called a break hoping I
> could find > a dictionary to differentiate those words and how they
> worked. The > dictionary was no help at all; the explanations were
> contradictory instead > of enlightening.
> >
> > Can any of you help me with this? I'd appreciate whatever you can
> send > either through the listserv or directly to me. Since I'm
> "supposed" to > follow up with the class, I "suppose" I should have a
> clear explanation > for the class. Thanks so much.
> >
> > Linda
> >
> >
> > Linda Comerford
> > 317.786.6404
> > [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> www.comerfordconsulting.com<https://webmail.smcm.edu/owa/UrlBlockedErr
> or.aspx>
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >
> [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 10:55 PM > To:
> [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject:
> "thats" for "whose"
> >
> > We've had considerable discussion of relative "that" from time to
> time, > and I thought the following exchange from ADS-L might be of
interest.
> >
> > Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> > Emeritus Professor of English
> > Ball State University
> > Muncie, IN 47306
> > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header >
> ----------------------- > Sender: American Dialect Society >
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
> > Poster: Jonathan Lighter
> > <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
> > Subject: Re: "I've a 24" 2.4Ghz iMac _that's_ hard drive recently
> > packed > in."
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------- > I mentioned this some years ago. I had a freshman in the
> early '80s who > insisted that "that's" was correct because "whose"
> referred to people.
> >
> > When I surveyed English Department graduate students with a >
> fill-in-the-blank quiz, a fair number filled in the blanks with "that's"
> > instead of "whose."
> >
> > God knows what they wrote in their own papers. They were mainly
> working on > masters' rather than doctoral degrees, if that makes
> anyone feel better.
> > And
> > did I mention that the degrees would be in English? Yeah, I guess I
did.
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:30 PM, Laurence Horn >>
> <[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > it's an instance of "that" (reanalyzed from complementizer to
> >> > relative pronoun) in the genitive, as noted.
> >> >
> >
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