Ed,

A clause is a subject NP + a VP.  My definition of sentence in writing is
operational, but, because it must take into account things like
conjunctions, semi-colons, ellisions, etc., it is too lengthy to get into
here.  What I meant in my post was that students don't always sense the need
for an end-of-sentence signal (vs. an end-of-clause signal) because there is
no end-of-sentence marker in speech.

Your obesrvation that "my conclusion at the time was that most of the
run-ons and splices occurred where adults might well use a colon, semicolon,
or dash." was very helpful to me:  The sensing of a relationship between the
two clauses + a lack of knowledge about how to signal that relationship
properly in writing combine to produce a CS or RO. I'm going to start
looking at the CS's and RO's that students produce from exactly that
perspective--thanks!

I also concur that main clauses (vs. non-main clauses, however one chooses
to label them) are psychologically real.  I'm not sure, however, that I
understand what you mean by the "leap" from oral to written.  Sentences in
writing are in context also.  The pragmatics of a writing channel and its
formal conventions combine to disallow fragments except for rhetorical
effect or in quotes of speech where context is established.

I have, BTW, been using the concept of chunking for many years to help
students understand the underlying logic of how things work.  I was
pleasantly surprised over a year ago to discover that you also use it to
good effect in KISS.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: Edward Vavra [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:52 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Boundaries


John,
    You've presented an interesting perspective on an important
question, but I have trouble with your distinction between clause and
sentence.  There have been discussions of this on this list before, but
I still hold that main clauses (which may or may not be the equivalent
of a sentence) are pyschologically real, and in fact, the essential unit
of communication. I base this on a psycholinguistic model. See:
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/ENL111/Syntax/PLModel/Int000.htm
I hope to see more responses to your question, but I also have to
wonder if we can simply make a leap from oral to written language.
Psychologically, oral sentences appear in context. When my wife says
"Bread," she may mean "Bring home bread," or "Do you want some bread."
Both of the latter are clauses, but they are so only because of context.
Writing does not quite work that way.
     I wish, by the way, that more people were helping with KISS
grammar, for this would be an excellent research study. I say KISS, of
course, because KISS has a set, standard definition of clause, etc. I'm
just thinking of some students' papers that I read yesterday. They were
filled with splices, run-ons, and fragments. It would take some time and
thought to analyze those errors and explore their causes, but it would
probably be time well-spent.
Ed

P.S. I have another explanation of these errors on the web, based on an
analysis of 31 samples of seventh graders writing. See:
http://home.pct.edu/~evavra/ED498/R/1986/W7/W7Stats_Sum.htm
My conclusion at the time was that most of the run-ons and splices
occurred where adults might well use a colon, semicolon, or dash. In
other words, the students sensed a logical relationship in the ideas
expressed in the main clauses, but had not been taught how to punctuate
the sentences.




>>> [log in to unmask] 02/09/04 05:40PM >>>
Does anybody find fault with the following line of reason?

-- Speakers signal clausal boundaries by intonation and (sometimes)
pauses.

-- Sentence boundaries are clausal boundaries by definition, and are
signaled in the same manner.

-- So sentences are not psychologically real for speakers--only clauses
are.

If the above is true, then the intransigence of comma splices and even
run-ons is much easier to understand.

John

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