But another reason for 'wholesale acceptance of the "Don't teach grammar" message is that those teachers haven't been taught grammar, or have been taught it so badly that no competent teacher would want to perpetuate the practice.  We've got a couple of generations of teachers who have been taught this ideology and, quite naturally, haven't been taught much grammar.

I know we can all tell stories about doing summer workshops of rhetorical and discourse grammar for middle/secondary teachers, but those few teachers who participate really are the exception.

Herb


Subject: Re: Hostility toward grammar teaching
 
My experiences with this issue are limited, but they include both at a state college and in a few high schools. I think the divide is pretty much the same in both places, however. I do think that where Tim says 'most', I might say 'many' because I see more resistance among secondary teachers than I would like to see; also, I think the numbers are slowly changing in favor of more grammar (although sometimes for reasons I think are questionable). I have no hard numbers, however, to base this on (nor am I interested in doing that kind of research -- although I think it would be interesting if someone actually did the research).
 
My impression is that secondary teachers who oppose the teaching of grammar got their attitude from the NCTE position of 1985 rather than from college professors; as a group, we tend to ignore what is being done at the post secondary level -- not through lack of interest as much as through lack of time. One other reason for the wholesale acceptance of the "Don't teach grammar" message is that we have a huge load of "content" on our plates, and if we are given ANY excuse to reduce that load, we're bound to be tempted to take it.
 
Only nut cases, like me, are likely to add stuff to that load that others are reducng.
 
Paul D.
 


"Hadley, Tim" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I agree with Paul's comments about the age factor, and want to add that my original comment about English teachers who seem to hate grammar was meant primarily to refer to college-level people. This is the level I am most familiar with. In my experience, speaking anecdotally again, most secondary English teachers are very much in favor or grammar, though I'm sure there are exceptions. 

It is mostly the college-level people who have taken the incorrect conclusions of the Braddock and Hillocks reports and mounted intense, aggressive campaigns against grammar teaching at both the secondary and the college levels. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this has been my experience. Of course, what the college people say often filters down to the secondary level, either in official policy or just in lore, so either way it does its damage.

Tim

Tim Hadley
Research Assistant, The Graduate School
Ph.D. candidate, Technical Communication and Rhetoric
Texas Tech University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Paul E. Doniger
Sent: Sat 10/1/2005 9:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Hostility toward grammar teaching


Christine,

Excpet for liking math, I'm with you (but I like music theory, which is a kind of grammar, too). It seems to me that most of the people who are hostile to teaching grammar are English teachers of my generation or a little older - I'm 58 (a.k.a., they're my colleagues). I just heard this week some anti-grammar comments from an otherwise excellent English teacher. Some attitudes will only change, I suspect, as the old guard retires; however, though the newer generations may be more open to teaching grammar, they may not be well enough prepared to teach it (we've been seeing a thread on this issue again recently). What you say about beliefs that are puzzling rings home to me, too. 

Curiously, I am rehearsing my theatre kids in The Mouse That Roared, and there's a line from professor Kokintz in response to the question about his Q-bomb -- a WMD of immense power -- that it's "a peace weapon." I see that as a laugh line!

Paul D.

Christine Reintjes wrote:

Who are these people who are hostile to grammar teaching? Are they people 
who aren't knowledgeable about grammar and feel threatened? Why is it hard 
to define grammar? Isn't it the structure and patterns of a language? I'm 
wondering what is really at stake here.

I find grammar studies interesting and fun. Am I unusual? It's probably a 
combination of nature and nurture like most things. I also like math, and I 
know some people say they detest math, but no one suggests that as a reason 
not to teach math. I'm glad to learn about this controversy which I've been 
unaware of most of my life. I began my career as an ESL and college English 
teacher at my community college in 2000. I was amazed to learn that 
teachers were forbidden to teach grammar. I'm still amazed. It's so 
puzzling, but then many beliefs are mind boggling to me like usi! ng violence 
to make the world peaceful.

--

Christine Reintjes Martin
[log in to unmask]




----Original Message Follows----
From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." 
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/




"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/