Why would one say an hotel without the /h/ and /Di/ hotel with the /h/.
Should not one drop the /h/ or say the article with a schwa--not an /i/.
Is that just as ideolectical variation on my part?
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2011 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 28 Aug 2011 to 29 Aug 2011 (#2011-162)
There are 3 messages totalling 568 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Dropping the h (3)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 12:19:35 -0400
From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Dropping the h
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My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentences
legible.
For this reason I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my
apology.
I keep the 'h' in "the historical" and drop it in "an historical." I say "a
history." Why do
I not say "an history." The very presence of 'an' tells me that the 'h' in
historical is
silent-but why? I cannot think of another phrase comparable to "an
historical"
except 'an hysterical."
Can you?
Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
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at:
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>My MS Word =
did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentences =
legible.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For this reason I may be =
repeating what others have said; if so , my apology.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I keep the =
‘h’ in “the historical” and drop it in “an =
historical.” I say “a history.” Why =
do<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I not say “an =
history.” The very presence of ‘an’ tells me =
that the ‘h’ in historical is<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>silent—but why? I cannot think of another =
phrase comparable to “an historical” <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> except ‘an hysterical.” =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Can you?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Norman Scott =
Catledge, PhD/STD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Professor =
Emeritus<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>history & =
languages<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<p>
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------=_NextPart_000_00A6_01CC6645.EA1DA650--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:24:54 -0400
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dropping the h
------=_Part_20632_640456547.1314653094746
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Norman Scott,=20
I _ope _hat _his _elpful t_oug_t and r_etorical question mig_t _elp t_is _o=
st of folks to _ave an _istorical impact on _his issue.=20
=C2=A0=20
Eduard=20
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Catledge" <[log in to unmask]>=20
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 11:19:35 AM=20
Subject: Dropping the h=20
My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentence=
s legible.=20
For this reason I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apolog=
y.=20
=C2=A0=20
I keep the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=9Cthe historical=E2=80=9D and drop=
it in =E2=80=9Can historical.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 I say =E2=80=9Ca history.=E2=
=80=9D=C2=A0 Why do=20
I not say =E2=80=9Can history.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 The very presence of =E2=80=
=98an=E2=80=99 tells me that the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in historical is=20
silent=E2=80=94but why?=C2=A0 I cannot think of another phrase comparable t=
o =E2=80=9Can historical=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=20
=C2=A0except =E2=80=98an hysterical.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=20
Can you?=20
=C2=A0=20
Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD=20
Professor Emeritus=20
history & languages=20
=C2=A0 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web int=
erface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join o=
r leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<html><head><style type=3D'text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><=
div style=3D'font-family: Times New Roman; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'=
><P>Norman Scott,</P>
<P> </P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D3><FONT fac=
e=3D"Times New Roman">I _ope _hat _his _elpful t_oug_t and r_etorical quest=
ion mig_t _elp t_is _ost of folks to _ave an _istorical impact on _his issu=
e.<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:off=
ice" /><o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=3DMsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=3D3 face=
=3D"Times New Roman"> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=3DMsoNormal><FONT size=3D3><FONT fac=
e=3D"Times New Roman">Eduard <o:p></o:p></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><BR><BR> </P>
<P>
<HR id=3Dzwchr>
</P>
<P><B>From: </B>"Scott Catledge" <[log in to unmask]><BR><B>To: </B>ATEG=
@LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU<BR><B>Sent: </B>Monday, August 29, 2011 11:19:35 AM<BR=
><B>Subject: </B>Dropping the h<BR><BR></P>
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<DIV class=3DWordSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and lef=
t only a few sentences legible.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>For this reason I may be repeating what others have sa=
id; if so , my apology.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I keep the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in =E2=80=9Cthe histori=
cal=E2=80=9D and drop it in =E2=80=9Can historical.=E2=80=9D I say =
=E2=80=9Ca history.=E2=80=9D Why do</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I not say =E2=80=9Can history.=E2=80=9D The very=
presence of =E2=80=98an=E2=80=99 tells me that the =E2=80=98h=E2=80=99 in =
historical is</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>silent=E2=80=94but why? I cannot think of anothe=
r phrase comparable to =E2=80=9Can historical=E2=80=9D </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> except =E2=80=98an hysterical.=E2=80=9D </=
P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Can you?</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Professor Emeritus</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>history & languages</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> </P></DIV>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, p=
lease visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive=
s/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"=20
<P>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></div></body></html>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_20632_640456547.1314653094746--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:45:34 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Dropping the h
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C75639756EMAILBACKEND0_
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Here's a short treatment of initial <h> in English. I'm taking a historica=
l approach to the problem in part out of inclination-I do historical lingui=
stics, but I also think understanding why orthographic initial <h> behaves =
a little oddly in English requires understanding its history. In this disc=
ussion, I'm using the linguistic conventions of // to identify sounds and <=
> to identify letters.
/h/ deletion is a bit messy. One of the fundamental discoveries and princi=
ples of historical linguistics is that sound change is regular. If a sound=
changes, it changes all across the language, not just in some words. For =
example, English /t/ has deleted consistently between a fricative (/th, f, =
s/) and /l/ or /n/, as in "listen," "whistle," "wrestle," "often," etc. Ho=
wever, social and other external pressures can interfere with this regulari=
ty, and that's what's happened with English initial /h/. Old English had i=
nitial /h/ in words like "horse," "heart," "hand," "hound," and many others=
and did not drop it. /h/ dropping didn't begin till well after the Norman=
invasion and was influenced by French spelling. English borrowed lots of =
French words spelled with initial <h>, a sound that was not, and is not tod=
ay, pronounced in French. In fact, those initial <h> had never been pronou=
nced, not even when they originated in Latin, as most of them did. So the =
words were borrowed without the initial /h/ sound but were spelled with the=
letter <h>.
As literacy spread, English speakers who did not speak French confronted in=
itial <h> that were pronounced and initial <h> that were not. We still hav=
e this in words like "honor," "honest," and "hour," all French loans that h=
ave remained /h/-less, unlike "hotel" and "hospital," French loans that hav=
e gained an initial /h/. The initial <h> that are now pronounced in loan w=
ords are examples of what's called "spelling pronunciation," the same force=
that leads people to pronounce the <t> in "often" or the <l> in "almond." =
Spelling pronunciation applies haphazardly. It's not a form of regular so=
und change. Rather, it a kind of hyper-correction. In many cases, the ini=
tial /h/ has come to be accepted as standard, as in "history"; in others it=
has not.
The difference between "an historic event," without the /h/, and "a history=
of English," with the /h/, shows how the /h/-less pronunciation of the loa=
nword would lead to the use of the indefinite "an" and the definite /Di/, w=
hich sounds like "thee." What has happened with some words, like "history,=
" is that they have sounded the initial <h> through spelling pronunciation,=
and this change then analogizes to the adjective form so that it too is co=
nsonant-initial and takes the indefinite "a."
/h/-insertion, in those dialects of BrE English that have it, and this cove=
rs most of England, is a form of hypercorrection. The speaker knows that i=
n BBC English, for example, some <h> are pronounced and some are not, but t=
he speaker doesn't know which are which, and so he or she will tend to omit=
/h/ unless the word is emphasized, in which case an /h/ gets inserted whet=
her it's there in BBC English or not. Like other examples of hypercorrecti=
on, this is not a rule-governed, regular phonological pattern. It varies w=
ith speakers and occasions.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Catledge
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2011 12:20 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Dropping the h
My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left only a few sentence=
s legible.
For this reason I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apolog=
y.
I keep the 'h' in "the historical" and drop it in "an historical." I say "=
a history." Why do
I not say "an history." The very presence of 'an' tells me that the 'h' in=
historical is
silent-but why? I cannot think of another phrase comparable to "an histori=
cal"
except 'an hysterical."
Can you?
Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave=
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vli=
nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Here’s a s=
hort treatment of initial <h> in English. I’m taking a hi=
storical approach to the problem in part out of inclination—I do hist=
orical linguistics, but I also think understanding why orthographic initial=
<h> behaves a little oddly in English requires understanding its his=
tory. In this discussion, I’m using the linguistic conventions =
of // to identify sounds and <> to identify letters. <o:p></o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>/h/ del=
etion is a bit messy. One of the fundamental discoveries and principl=
es of historical linguistics is that sound change is regular. If a so=
und changes, it changes all across the language, not just in some words.&nb=
sp; For example, English /t/ has deleted consistently between a fricative (=
/th, f, s/) and /l/ or /n/, as in “listen,” “whistle,R=
21; “wrestle,” “often,” etc. However, social =
and other external pressures can interfere with this regularity, and that&#=
8217;s what’s happened with English initial /h/. Old English ha=
d initial /h/ in words like “horse,” “heart,” ̶=
0;hand,” “hound,” and many others and did not drop it.&nb=
sp; /h/ dropping didn’t begin till well after the Norman invasion and=
was influenced by French spelling. English borrowed lots of French w=
ords spelled with initial <h>, a sound that was not, and is not today=
, pronounced in French. In fact, those initial <h> had never be=
en pronounced, not even when they originated in Latin, as most of them did.=
So the words were borrowed without the initial /h/ sound but were sp=
elled with the letter <h>. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>As literacy spread, English=
speakers who did not speak French confronted initial <h> that were p=
ronounced and initial <h> that were not. We still have this in =
words like “honor,” “honest,” and “hour,̶=
1; all French loans that have remained /h/-less, unlike “hotel”=
and “hospital,” French loans that have gained an initial /h/.&=
nbsp; The initial <h> that are now pronounced in loan words are examp=
les of what’s called “spelling pronunciation,” the same f=
orce that leads people to pronounce the <t> in “often” or=
the <l> in “almond.” Spelling pronunciation applie=
s haphazardly. It’s not a form of regular sound change. R=
ather, it a kind of hyper-correction. In many cases, the initial /h/ =
has come to be accepted as standard, as in “history”; in others=
it has not.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal>The difference between “an historic event,” with=
out the /h/, and “a history of English,” with the /h/, shows ho=
w the /h/-less pronunciation of the loanword would lead to the use of the i=
ndefinite “an” and the definite /Di/, which sounds like “=
thee.” What has happened with some words, like “history,&=
#8221; is that they have sounded the initial <h> through spelling pro=
nunciation, and this change then analogizes to the adjective form so that i=
t too is consonant-initial and takes the indefinite “a.” =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al>/h/-insertion, in those dialects of BrE English that have it, and this c=
overs most of England, is a form of hypercorrection. The speaker know=
s that in BBC English, for example, some <h> are pronounced and some =
are not, but the speaker doesn’t know which are which, and so he or s=
he will tend to omit /h/ unless the word is emphasized, in which case an /h=
/ gets inserted whether it’s there in BBC English or not. Like =
other examples of hypercorrection, this is not a rule-governed, regular pho=
nological pattern. It varies with speakers and occasions. <o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o=
:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Herb<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></span></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF=
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly for the=
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf=
Of </b>Scott Catledge<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, August 29, 2011 12:20 PM<br>=
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Dropping the h<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal>My MS Word did not like most of the discussion and left onl=
y a few sentences legible.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For this reas=
on I may be repeating what others have said; if so , my apology.<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I keep t=
he ‘h’ in “the historical” and drop it in “an=
historical.” I say “a history.” Why do<o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I not say “an history.” The=
very presence of ‘an’ tells me that the ‘h’ in his=
torical is<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>silent—but why? I=
cannot think of another phrase comparable to “an historical”&n=
bsp; <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> except ‘an hysterical.=
” <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Can you?<o:p></o:p></p><p=
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Norman Scott C=
atledge, PhD/STD<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Professor Emeritus<o:p>=
</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>history & languages<o:p></o:p></p><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'fon=
t-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>To join or leave this =
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href=3D"http://=
listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives=
/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ate=
g.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>=
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 28 Aug 2011 to 29 Aug 2011 (#2011-162)
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