I have no good answer to "Sir, I have finished."
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2007 12:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Sep 2007 to 20 Sep 2007 (#2007-116)
There are 6 messages totalling 1223 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. 'Present perfect' and Lynn Berk's book
2. Predictors (2)
3. question on countable and uncountable nouns (3)
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Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 08:33:16 -0700
From: Ronald Sheen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 'Present perfect' and Lynn Berk's book
Further to Michael's post, though corpus data is clearly of importance in
deciding what might be acceptable or not, we should also consider other
criteria in deciding what to teach to various student populations. One of
those criteria might be what teachers of English as a first language find
acceptable. This is why I asked members to react to the 20 sentences
without giving too many clues as to what I was after.
Those reactions appeared to show that those who responded would not correct
the uses of the simple past where the present perfect is 'prescribed'.
I'd suggest that if the reactions are typical of most teachers, then this
would justify adopting something similar to the approach which I proposed to
the teaching of the present perfect in ESL situations.
Now, whether the same criteria of usage should be applied to teaching
English as a first language, I leave to those teachers involved to discuss.
Ron Sheen.
----- Original Message -----
From: "R. Michael Medley (ck)" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 2:27 PM
Subject: 'Present perfect' and Lynn Berk's book
>I am interested in this reference to _English Syntax_ by Kathleen Ward a
> couple days ago. I wonder to what extent Berk's discussion of the range
> of meanings for the perfect aspect are informed by corpus studies. A few
> years ago, I heard a wonderful presentation by Marianne Celce-Murcia in
> which she used the perfect aspect as an example and talked about how her
> own advice to teachers had changed based on actual usages of this form
> that corpus studies had revealed.
>
> I use Graeme Kennedy's _Structure and Meaning in English_ in my
> college-level grammar course. Surprisingly, Kennedy, whose consistently
> provides information derived from corpus studies, has a table on "most
> frequent uses of perfect aspect forms" (5.16 on p. 217) based on a work by
> H.V. George published in 1963!! In that study, the two usages that make
> up the majority of occurances are "past narrative" ["Before I could move,
> he had reached the door."] (28%) and "present result" ["She has bought a
> new car."] (23%). Who knows, however, what kind of a database George was
> using, how large it was, etc.
>
> Interestingly, two of the perfect usages most emphasized in ESL grammar
> textbooks are for "continuity" ["I have lived her since 1970."] and
> "experience" ["I have never tasted caviar."]--and these make up only 6%
> each of the the occurances in George's data. I suppose we find them easier
> to teach because of the particular grammatical structures involved--e.g.
> the clause with "since...."
>
> Is anyone aware of more recent corpus studies relating to the use of
> perfect aspect?
>
>
>
> Kathleen M. Ward wrote:
>> I have always liked Lynn Berk's "take" on the present perfect, as put
> forth in _English Syntax_. I have used it shamelessly when I teach the
> grammar course. She describes the various uses of the perfect:
>>
>> 1. An action or series of action began in the past and continues to (or
> through) the present moment.
>>
>> Horatia has developed many new uses for parsnips. (she's done it in
>> the past and may continue to do so.)
>>
>> 2. An event is technically over but has "current relevance."
>>
>> Horatia has dropped the pan of parsnips. (and they are all over the
>> floor)
>>
>> I think this would cover the "Sir, I've finished" usage
>>
>> 3. The "experiential perfect" in which the subject has had (or has
> not had) an experience in the past that leads up to the present,
> especially in questions in negatives.
>>
>> I haven't tried Horatia's parsnip preserves.
>>
>> 4. The "hot news" perfect, often with an exclamation mark, or in
> headlines. This has to be something in the very recent past.
>>
>> Horatia has been fired!
>>
>> This might also apply to the "Sir, I've finished" usage--I suppose
>> depending on the tone of voice.
>>
>> I have always found _English Syntax_ very good as a reference for uses
> of various forms; as a textbook it's more problematic.
>>
>> Kathleen Ward
>> UC Davis
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sep 18, 2007, at 6:10 AM, Ronald Sheen wrote:
>>
>>> Scott writes:
>>>
>>> Unless the linguist's assumption is that the speaker are not using
> these past /perfect tense
>>> expressions consciously. I would teach present perfect as indicating
> continuing or repeated or incomplete action..
>>>
>>> But how about 'Sir, I've finished.'?
>>>
>>> and
>>>
>>> how about the essential semantic feature of 'relevance to the
>>> present moment' as in the above and which explains the difference
> between the simple past in 'When I was a boy, I visited.France, Germany
> and Spain.' and the present perfect in 'So far, I have
>>> visited France, Germany and Spain.'
>>>
>>> I'll explore this issue more when I give a summary of the responses to
> my 20 sentences.
>>>
>>> Ron Sheen
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>>
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>>
>
>
> R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
> Director Intensive English Program
> Eastern Mennonite University
> 1200 Park Road Harrisonburg, VA 22802
> Ph: 540-432-4051 Fax: 540-432-4444
> ************************************
> "Understanding and shared meaning, when it occurs, is a small miracle,
> brought about by the leap of faith that we call 'communication across
> cultures.'" --Claire Kramsch
>
>
>
> R. Michael Medley, Ph.D.
> Director Intensive English Program
> Eastern Mennonite University
> 1200 Park Road Harrisonburg, VA 22802
> Ph: 540-432-4051 Fax: 540-432-4444
> ************************************
> "Understanding and shared meaning, when it occurs, is a small miracle,
> brought about by the leap of faith that we call 'communication across
> cultures.'" --Claire Kramsch
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 20:03:30 -0500
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Predictors
At 10:16 PM 9/18/2007, Paul E. Doniger wrote: . . .
>DD responded:"So true. But the schools seem to have no clearly
>assigned missions.
>I'm not sure what DD means, but every school I've worked in has had
>a mission statement, and mostly good ones.
DD: I meant an operationally definition. Not to improve the student
in something not defined, but to improve the students' score on the
ACT, or their results in some other test. Not feel good, achieve
excellence, if that is not operationally defined. I don't mind a
definition that strives for more students passing the National Latin
Test, nor achieve a lower drop out rate.
>My present school's mission (and I hope to stay here for the rest of
>my career) is as follows: "The mission of Pomperaug Regional High
>School, a caring community committed to excellence, is to educate
>each student to become a productive, responsible, enlightened
>citizen and a creative life-long learner through high quality,
>dynamic, innovative learning experiences in collaboration with the
>Region 15 community."
DD: And how is one supposed to measure that?
>It seems a pretty "clearly assigned mission" to me, and one that
>drives our curriculum; it's well worth supporting. We are constantly
>asked to hold our students accountable to a high standard.
DD: What standard?
>We also try to keep the community involved (it's easy for me,
>running a theatre program that depends on parents and local
>businesses being involved).
>I often wonder where people get their ideas about public schools and
>what goes on inside them Certainly, having taught both in the inner
>cities and in a blue collar town, I have seen some of the failings
>that have been mentioned in this thread, but mostly, I've seen good
>teaching and very little "dumbing down." . . .
DD: I have also taught in the public school system. I did my utmost
to achieve what I thought was desirable, but no clear mission statement had
I.
> What really causes problems for education are often those things
> that are out of our control: Budget cuts, large classes (usually a
> result of budget restraints), unfunded government mandates (like
> Craig, I am "not a fan" of NCLB -- actually, I hate the thing),
> standardized testing interrupting the process, consumerism,
> materialism, technological distractions (TV was just the
> beginning), and the drive to focus on the goal of creating a work
> force rather than creating "good citizens" in a Jeffersonian sense.
DD: I note you specify "education." Undefined. No clear mission statement.
>Add to this that since the 1940s, 12 years of public education has
>become the minimal requirement for every American; there is a
>greater percentage of people who are expected to graduate from high
>school than ever in history -- and the stigma of not graduating is
>immense, both socially and economically.
DD: So the standards for so doing have been reduced to see it that they do.
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 14:44:11 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Predictors
I'm probably going to sound horribly pompous in the following
observations, but I think this thread is bringing up a common, general
problem in assessment, and it will inevitably apply to any attempt to
set up standardized benchmarks and assessment strategies for grammar
education: some things lend themselves far more easily to operational
definitions than others (at least, in the old logical-positivist sense
of operational definitions), and one has to constantly work to prevent
the naturally-occurring "lines of least resistance" from distorting the
assessment system and the goals to which it is connected.
It is, for example, far, far easier to define operationally what
constitutes an acceptable level of control over subject-verb agreement
than to construct an equivalent definition of what constitutes an
acceptable level of control over word-choice. "Being able to turn an
active sentence into a passive sentence" is a skill that easy to define
operationally; "being able to use passive sentences appropriately" is
less so. In practice, operational definitions of the difficult stuff
only *look* operational, or are a bit circular; e.g. "A piece of writing
shows appropriate use of passives if a representative set of composition
teachers think it shows appropriate use of passives." After all, the
logical-positivists themselves, who pushed the idea of operational
definitions about as far as it would go, had to acknowledge the problems
inherent in them in the end.=20
This does not, of course, entail that we should not try to define things
operationally. The basic, common-sense assessment idea that "it's a good
thing to know whether you're doing what you think you're doing" is hard
to argue with, and the vaguer the definition, the harder it is to use it
for anything worthwhile. I've seen numerous examples of definitions that
were seemingly intended almost solely to create a nice
responsibility-free spin zone (and the evils of vague definitions pale
in comparison to the horror that is the average goals statement). But
I've also seen what happens when assessment is driven by what is *easy*
to operationalize, and the results are a disservice to our students and
to the democracy they'll shape.=20
The solution may be to adopt the same kind of strategy toward each case
of operationalization that we do toward most other public-policy
issues: do a cost-benefit analysis. Whenever it's possible to create a
nice, tight, operational definition, do so. If consensus can't be
reached on an operational definition for proficiency in a skill that
everyone views as vital, however, tolerating some fuzziness may be
warranted -- I'm not going to ignore tone as a writing issue, for
example, simply because it's not amenable to exact definition or
measurement. If considerations of assessment language pressure
instructors to drop entire topics from the curriculum, we're in trouble.
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University.=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of DD Farms
Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:04 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Predictors
At 10:16 PM 9/18/2007, Paul E. Doniger wrote: . . .
>DD responded:"So true. But the schools seem to have no clearly=20
>assigned missions.
>I'm not sure what DD means, but every school I've worked in has had=20
>a mission statement, and mostly good ones.
DD: I meant an operationally definition. Not to improve the student=20
in something not defined, but to improve the students' score on the=20
ACT, or their results in some other test. Not feel good, achieve=20
excellence, if that is not operationally defined. I don't mind a=20
definition that strives for more students passing the National Latin=20
Test, nor achieve a lower drop out rate.
>My present school's mission (and I hope to stay here for the rest of=20
>my career) is as follows: "The mission of Pomperaug Regional High=20
>School, a caring community committed to excellence, is to educate=20
>each student to become a productive, responsible, enlightened=20
>citizen and a creative life-long learner through high quality,=20
>dynamic, innovative learning experiences in collaboration with the=20
>Region 15 community."
DD: And how is one supposed to measure that?
>It seems a pretty "clearly assigned mission" to me, and one that=20
>drives our curriculum; it's well worth supporting. We are constantly=20
>asked to hold our students accountable to a high standard.
DD: What standard?
>We also try to keep the community involved (it's easy for me,=20
>running a theatre program that depends on parents and local=20
>businesses being involved).
>I often wonder where people get their ideas about public schools and=20
>what goes on inside them Certainly, having taught both in the inner=20
>cities and in a blue collar town, I have seen some of the failings=20
>that have been mentioned in this thread, but mostly, I've seen good=20
>teaching and very little "dumbing down." . . .
DD: I have also taught in the public school system. I did my utmost=20
to achieve what I thought was desirable, but no clear mission statement
had I.
> What really causes problems for education are often those things=20
> that are out of our control: Budget cuts, large classes (usually a=20
> result of budget restraints), unfunded government mandates (like=20
> Craig, I am "not a fan" of NCLB -- actually, I hate the thing),=20
> standardized testing interrupting the process, consumerism,=20
> materialism, technological distractions (TV was just the=20
> beginning), and the drive to focus on the goal of creating a work=20
> force rather than creating "good citizens" in a Jeffersonian sense.
DD: I note you specify "education." Undefined. No clear mission
statement.
>Add to this that since the 1940s, 12 years of public education has=20
>become the minimal requirement for every American; there is a=20
>greater percentage of people who are expected to graduate from high=20
>school than ever in history -- and the stigma of not graduating is=20
>immense, both socially and economically.
DD: So the standards for so doing have been reduced to see it that they
do.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:21:58 -0400
From: Natalie Gerber <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: question on countable and uncountable nouns
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Hello:
=20
I would be grateful for your thoughts as to whether or not embarrassment
is a countable or uncountable noun or both. In the phrase "to protect
the State Department from political embarrassment" it seems to me to be
an uncountable noun; yet in the phrase "an embarrassment of riches,"
embarrassment follows the property of a countable noun, i.e., it can be
modified by the indefinite article.=20
=20
Can one say I faced several embarrassments as opposed to I faced several
kinds of embarrassment? i.e., embarrassment as a count noun is an
instance of embarrassment whereas embarrassment as a noncount noun is
the state of being embarrassed? And is there a reliable resource for
checking the status of common nouns?
=20
Thanks for your thoughts-
=20
Natalie Gerber
SUNY Fredonia
=20
=20
=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal>I would be grateful for your thoughts as to whether =
or not <i>embarrassment</i>
is a countable or uncountable noun or both. In the phrase “to =
protect the
State Department from political embarrassment” it seems to me to =
be an
uncountable noun; yet in the phrase “an embarrassment of =
riches,”
embarrassment follows the property of a countable noun, i.e., it can be
modified by the indefinite article. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Can one say <i>I faced several embarrassments</i> =
as opposed
to <i>I faced several kinds of embarrassment</i>? i.e., <i>embarrassment =
</i>as
a count noun is an instance of embarrassment whereas =
<i>embarrassment</i> as a
noncount noun is the state of being embarrassed? And is there a reliable =
resource
for checking the status of common nouns?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for your thoughts—<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Natalie Gerber<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>SUNY Fredonia<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
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<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:49:10 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: question on countable and uncountable nouns
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Natalie,
=20
Your "state" vs. "instance" distinction sounds right on the money to me.
The word is usable in either sense, e.g. "Senator Pouncetrifle faced the
latest in a string of embarrassments today as his former finance advisor
admitted changing the status of some of his campaign funds" vs. "Senator
Pouncetrifle has had to deal with a lot of embarrassment recently."=20
=20
---- Bill Spruiell
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Natalie Gerber
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: question on countable and uncountable nouns
=20
Hello:
=20
I would be grateful for your thoughts as to whether or not embarrassment
is a countable or uncountable noun or both. In the phrase "to protect
the State Department from political embarrassment" it seems to me to be
an uncountable noun; yet in the phrase "an embarrassment of riches,"
embarrassment follows the property of a countable noun, i.e., it can be
modified by the indefinite article.=20
=20
Can one say I faced several embarrassments as opposed to I faced several
kinds of embarrassment? i.e., embarrassment as a count noun is an
instance of embarrassment whereas embarrassment as a noncount noun is
the state of being embarrassed? And is there a reliable resource for
checking the status of common nouns?
=20
Thanks for your thoughts-
=20
Natalie Gerber
SUNY Fredonia
=20
=20
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Natalie,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Your =
“state” vs. “instance”
distinction sounds right on the money to me. The word is usable in =
either sense,
e.g. “Senator Pouncetrifle faced the latest in a string of =
embarrassments today
as his former finance advisor admitted changing the status of some of =
his
campaign funds” vs. “Senator Pouncetrifle has had to deal =
with a lot of embarrassment
recently.” <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>---- Bill =
Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Natalie
Gerber<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:22 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> question on countable and uncountable =
nouns<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I would be grateful for your thoughts as to whether =
or not <i>embarrassment</i>
is a countable or uncountable noun or both. In the phrase “to =
protect the State
Department from political embarrassment” it seems to me to be an =
uncountable
noun; yet in the phrase “an embarrassment of riches,” =
embarrassment follows the
property of a countable noun, i.e., it can be modified by the indefinite
article. <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Can one say <i>I faced several embarrassments</i> =
as opposed
to <i>I faced several kinds of embarrassment</i>? i.e., <i>embarrassment =
</i>as
a count noun is an instance of embarrassment whereas =
<i>embarrassment</i> as a
noncount noun is the state of being embarrassed? And is there a reliable
resource for checking the status of common nouns?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for your thoughts—<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Natalie Gerber<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>SUNY Fredonia<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>To
join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or =
leave
the list" <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p>
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C7FBBF.51F9DA16--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:51:41 -0400
From: "Veit, Richard" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: question on countable and uncountable nouns
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Clearly both, as your examples demonstrate. Sometimes we use it as a
mass noun, sometimes as a count noun.
=20
Dick Veit
________________________________
Richard Veit
Department of English
University of North Carolina Wilmington
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Natalie Gerber
Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2007 3:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: question on countable and uncountable nouns
=20
Hello:
=20
I would be grateful for your thoughts as to whether or not embarrassment
is a countable or uncountable noun or both. In the phrase "to protect
the State Department from political embarrassment" it seems to me to be
an uncountable noun; yet in the phrase "an embarrassment of riches,"
embarrassment follows the property of a countable noun, i.e., it can be
modified by the indefinite article.=20
=20
Can one say I faced several embarrassments as opposed to I faced several
kinds of embarrassment? i.e., embarrassment as a count noun is an
instance of embarrassment whereas embarrassment as a noncount noun is
the state of being embarrassed? And is there a reliable resource for
checking the status of common nouns?
=20
Thanks for your thoughts-
=20
Natalie Gerber
SUNY Fredonia
=20
=20
=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=20
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Clearly both, as your examples =
demonstrate.
Sometimes we use it as a mass noun, sometimes as a count =
noun.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Dick =
Veit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>________________________________</span></font><font =
color=3Dnavy><span
style=3D'color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><font
size=3D2 color=3Dteal face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:teal'>Richard Veit<br>
Department of English<br>
</span></font><font size=3D2 face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial'><ns1:PlaceType w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:insDate=3D"2007-09-20T15:49:00Z"
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW" =
w:endInsDate=3D"2007-09-20T15:49:00Z"><st1:PlaceType
w:st=3D"on"><font color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>University</span></font></st1:PlaceType></ns1:PlaceT=
ype><font
color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> of </span></font><ns1:PlaceName
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW" w:insDate=3D"2007-09-20T15:49:00Z" =
w:endInsAuthor=3D"UNCW"
w:endInsDate=3D"2007-09-20T15:49:00Z"><st1:PlaceName w:st=3D"on"><font =
color=3Dteal><span
style=3D'color:teal'>North =
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color=3Dteal><span style=3D'color:teal'> </span></font><ns1:City =
w:insAuthor=3D"UNCW"
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w:st=3D"on"><font
color=3Dteal><span =
style=3D'color:teal'>Wilmington</span></font></st1:place></st1:City></ns1=
:place></ns1:City></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> =
<st1:PersonName
w:st=3D"on">Assembly for the Teaching of English =
Grammar</st1:PersonName>
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>On =
Behalf
Of </span></b>Natalie Gerber<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Thursday, September =
20, 2007
3:22 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> =
[log in to unmask]<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> question on =
countable and
uncountable nouns</span></font><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New =
Roman"><span
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman"'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Hello:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>I
would be grateful for your thoughts as to whether or not <i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>embarrassment</span></i> is a countable or
uncountable noun or both. In the phrase “to protect the State =
Department
from political embarrassment” it seems to me to be an uncountable =
noun;
yet in the phrase “an embarrassment of riches,” =
embarrassment
follows the property of a countable noun, i.e., it can be modified by =
the
indefinite article. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Can
one say <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>I faced several =
embarrassments</span></i>
as opposed to <i><span style=3D'font-style:italic'>I faced several kinds =
of
embarrassment</span></i>? i.e., <i><span =
style=3D'font-style:italic'>embarrassment
</span></i>as a count noun is an instance of embarrassment whereas =
<i><span
style=3D'font-style:italic'>embarrassment</span></i> as a noncount noun =
is the
state of being embarrassed? And is there a reliable resource for =
checking the
status of common nouns?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Thanks
for your thoughts—<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Natalie
Gerber<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>SUNY
Fredonia<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 face=3DCalibri><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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