Herbert,
Please help with the following:
Is this grammatically wrong?
"Running errands, doing the laundry, walking the dogs--ready for this day to be over."
Thanks!
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 7/11/14, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna write me some music about"
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Friday, July 11, 2014, 11:43 AM
<[log in to unmask]>,<[log in to unmask]>
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I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further. As
one who began his lin=
guistic life doing field work on languages he knew little
about, I'm sensit=
ive to the influence a standard orthography has on our
analyses. Suppose y=
ou were doing field work on English with no orthography and
little other in=
formation to rely on--or be misled by. When you hear
/aimn@go/ you would b=
y no stretch of the imagination connect that to "I am going
to go." Rather=
, you'd identify the first person singular subject pronoun,
the /m/ perhaps=
marking progressive aspect (although you'd properly have
doubts about that=
conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of future or
intentional marker wor=
thy of considerably more research. Maybe, after
comparing a number of dial=
ects you might come up with a historical internal
reconstruction that relat=
ed the form to "am going to," but that would have about as
much bearing on =
your synchronic grammatical description as the equally
historical discovery=
that the -t of "height" and the -th of "width" are the same
thing.
I fear sometimes that the extent to which our descriptions
look like our or=
thography or our grammatical traditions, they are not
evidence-based. The =
fact is that the results of grammaticalization are
frequently not recoverab=
le except by diligent study by trained grammarians; they
remain opaque to n=
ormal native speakers.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]
DU> on behalf of Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
write me some musi=
c about"
Bob,
Phonetic reduction is a dynamic process
directly related to frequency. =
Since =93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways
with main verbs=
, its use has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use
correlates well with =
phonetic reduction. It=92s an observation about how language
shifts in form=
as it takes on new (expanded) function. Want to has
expanded range of use =
in the same way. The same patterns are at work in its
reduction.The consens=
us seems to be that it has modal like qualities.
Biologists make observations about form all
the time without thinking o=
f life itself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is
the equivalent =
of an anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the
two are dynamica=
lly connected. No one would argue (scientifically) that
biological forms ar=
e independent of function and no one would propose that
forms are unimporta=
nt.
In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw
strict clear lines between=
categories in part because adaptation is constant.
Bybee=92s point=97and s=
he=92s not the only one making it=97is that language is more
like biology t=
han it is like physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is
a renewed inter=
est in empirical observation. This is certainly not a
retreat from form.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
AMIOH.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Yates
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Relevance of Syntax & Semantics: "I'm gonna
write me some musi=
c about"
I=92m confused by the following observation from Craig.
Sent from Windows Mail
From: Hancock, Craig G<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Sent: =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD =FD10=FD, =FD2014
=FD2=FD:=FD06=FD =FDPM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
As Bybee points out, the kind of phonetic reduction we get
with 'gonna' and=
oughtta' is typical of grammaticalization. We don't say
"I'm gonna New Yor=
k" for "I'm going to New York," but we do say "I'm gonna
take the train to =
New York" or "It's gonna rain." We only use it for
expressions of intention=
and prediction, which are modal in function. This would be
a good formal a=
rgument for "going to" functioning as a constituent group
when modal functi=
ons are carried out, but not for physical movement: going
plus to New York.
Now, if I understand Craig correctly, language is not a
formal system, yet =
he just made a formal distinction between =93going to=94
verb vs.=94 going =
to=94 location. It seems to me that we are dealing
with two different to=
=92s. The to in =93going to=94 marks a verb and the to
in making a locatio=
n is a preposition.
By the way, gonna reduction is also reflected in wanna.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
--_000_140509342553356225bsuedu_
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<div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID"
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<p>I'd like to take Craig's thoughts a step further.
As one who began=
his linguistic life doing field work on languages he knew
little about, I'=
m sensitive to the influence a standard orthography has on
our analyses. &n=
bsp;Suppose you were doing field work on English
with no orthography and little other information to rely
on--or be misled =
by. When you hear /aimn@go/ you would by no
stretch of the imaginatio=
n connect that to "I am going to go."
Rather, you'd identif=
y the first person singular subject pronoun, the /m/
perhaps marking progressive aspect (although you'd
properly have doub=
ts about that conclusion), and the /n@/ as some sort of
future or intention=
al marker worthy of considerably more research.
Maybe, after comparin=
g a number of dialects you might come up with
a historical internal reconstruction that related the form
to "am goi=
ng to," but that would have about as much bearing
on your synchronic g=
rammatical description as the equally historical discovery
that the -t of &=
quot;height" and the -th of
"width" are the same
thing. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>I fear sometimes that the extent to which our
descriptions look like our=
orthography or our grammatical traditions, they are not
evidence-based. &n=
bsp;The fact is that the results of grammaticalization are
frequently not r=
ecoverable except by diligent study by
trained grammarians; they remain opaque to normal native
speakers.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Herb <br>
</p>
<div>
<p><br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2">
<div class=3D"PlainText">Herbert F. W. Stahlke,
Ph.D.<br>
Emeritus Professor of English<br>
Ball State University<br>
Muncie, IN 47306<br>
[log in to unmask]</div>
</font></div>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(33, 33, 33);">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block;
width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font
face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000"
style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b>
Assembly for the Teac=
hing of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
on behalf of Hanc=
ock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 11, 2014 10:13
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax
& Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=
ite me some music about"</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Bob,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> Phon=
etic reduction is a dynamic process directly related to
frequency. Since =
=93going to=94 can now combine in auxiliary like ways with
main verbs, its =
use
has dramatically expanded. Frequency of use correlates well
with phonetic =
reduction. It=92s an observation about how language shifts
in form as it ta=
kes on new (expanded) function.
<i>Want to</i> has expanded range of use in the
same way. The same patterns=
are at work in its reduction.The consensus seems to be that
it has modal l=
ike qualities.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> Biol=
ogists make observations about form all the time without
thinking of life i=
tself as a formal system. What we need, I think, is the
equivalent of an
anatomy and physiology. In the world of biology, the two
are dynamically c=
onnected. No one would argue (scientifically) that
biological forms are ind=
ependent of function and no one would propose that forms are
unimportant.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">  =
;In the biological world, it=92s hard to draw strict clear
lines between ca=
tegories in part because adaptation is constant. Bybee=92s
point=97and she=
=92s not the
only one making it=97is that language is more like biology
than it is like=
physics and chemistry. In some ways, this is a renewed
interest in empiric=
al observation. This is certainly not a retreat from form.
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">Craig</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style=3D"font-=
size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Assemb=
ly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Yates<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, July 10, 2014 6:16
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Relevance of Syntax
& Semantics: "I'm gonna wr=
ite me some music about"</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif"">I=92m confused by the following
observation from Craig.<=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif"">Sent from Windows
Mail</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E5E5E5
1.0pt; padding:4.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&q=
uot;sans-serif";
letter-spacing:.25pt">From:</span></b><span
style=3D"=
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
letter-spacing:.25p=
t"> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_parent">Hancock,=
Craig G</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> =FDThursday=FD, =FDJuly=FD
=FD10=FD, =FD2014 =FD2=FD:=FD0=
6=FD =FDPM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_par=
ent">[log in to unmask]</a></span><span
style=3D"font-family:"C=
alibri","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","=
;sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"OWAFontStyleDivID">
<p style=3D"background:white"><em><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri&=
quot;,"sans-serif"; color:black">As
Bybee points out, t</span></e=
m><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
co=
lor:black">he kind of phonetic reduction we get with
'gonna' and oughtta' i=
s typical
of grammaticalization. We don't say "I'm gonna New
York" for &qu=
ot;I'm going to New York," but we do say
"I'm gonna take the trai=
n to New York" or "It's gonna
rain." We only use it for expr=
essions of intention and prediction, which are modal in
function. This woul=
d
be a good formal argument for "going to"
functioning as a consti=
tuent group when modal functions are carried out, but not
for physical move=
ment:
<em><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">=
going</span></em> plus <em><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri",&=
quot;sans-serif"">to New
York</span></em>. </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";
color:black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Now, if I
understand Craig correctly=
, language is not a formal system, yet he just made a formal
distinction be=
tween =93going to=94 verb vs.=94 going to=94
location. It seems
to me that we are dealing with two different
to=92s. The to in =
=93going to=94 marks a verb and the to in
making a location is a&=
nbsp;preposition.
</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";
color:black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif"; color:black">By the
way, gonna reduction is =
also reflected in wanna.
</span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif";
color:black"> </span></p>
<p style=3D"background:white"><span
style=3D"font-family:"Calibri"=
;,"sans-serif"; color:black">Bob Yates,
University of Central Mis=
souri </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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