I read this sentence to state that Susan, who was in the buggy laughing,
could see the flash of her teeth (in a mirror?) and the waving of the baby's
legs. It is difficult to parse such an awkward sentence.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 12:00 AM
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Subject: ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2012 to 16 Jan 2012 (#2012-10)
There are 5 messages totalling 565 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Gerund phrase v. gerund--grammar question
2. plural "words as words" (4)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 12:02:11 -0800
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Gerund phrase v. gerund--grammar question
--867226825-33033863-1326744131=:21908
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,=0A=A0=0AWould you characterize "the waving of the baby's legs fr=
om the buggy" as a gerund phrase in the following sentence? "Susan could se=
e the flash of her teeth, laughing, and the waving of=A0the baby's legs fro=
m the buggy."=A0 It soesn't seem to be one to me, since it can't operate as=
a participial phrase in another sentence. Would you agree? Why do some ger=
unds take an article and others not? In the following pairs, the first seem=
s to me to be a gerund phrase and the second not.=A0 Is this right? What is=
the principle behind why some take an article and other don't?=0A=A0=0ARol=
ling logs into the river was fun.=0AThe rolling of the logs into the river =
was annoying.=0A=A0=0AEating oatmeal is boring.=0AThe eating of the oatmeal=
has begun.=0A=A0=0ARunning=A0with the bulls=A0is fun.=0AThe running of the=
bulls has begun.=0A=A0=0AGrowing vegetables is fun.=0AThe growing of the v=
egetables was left to me.=0A=A0=0AThanks,=0A=0AScott Woods
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--867226825-33033863-1326744131=:21908
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ti=
mes new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style=3D"RIGHT: =
auto">Dear List,</div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">Would you characterize "the waving of the baby's=
legs from the buggy" as a gerund phrase in the following sentence? "Susan =
could see the flash of her teeth, laughing, and the waving of the baby=
's legs from the buggy." It soesn't seem to be one to me, since it ca=
n't operate as a participial phrase in another sentence. Would you agree? W=
hy do some gerunds take an article and others not? In the following pairs, =
the first seems to me to be a gerund phrase and the second not. Is th=
is right? What is the principle behind why some take an<VAR id=3Dyui-ie-cur=
sor></VAR> article and other don't?</div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto">Rolling logs into the river was fun.</div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">The rolling of the logs into the river was annoy=
ing.</div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div> <div style=3D"RIGHT:
auto">Eating oatmeal is boring.</div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto">The eating
of the oatmeal has begun.</div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">Running with the bulls is fun.</div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">The running of the bulls has begun.</div> <div
style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto">Growing
vegetables is fun.</div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto">The growing of the
vegetables was left to me.</d=
iv>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"> </div>
<div style=3D"RIGHT: auto">Thanks,</div> <div style=3D"RIGHT: auto"><BR
style=3D"RIGHT: auto">Scott Woods</div></div=
></body></html>
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--867226825-33033863-1326744131=:21908--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:23:04 -0600
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: plural "words as words"
Dear Colleagues:
I'm revising a chapter in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to Grammar & =
Usage) in terms of how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals. As =
you probably know, the style guides (MLA and APA in particular) aren't =
always in agreement, although most grammar texts prohibit the plural =
apostrophe in cases where they've tolerated them before. =20
The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used as words'. Thus, =
it seems most grammar books and style guides want us to use"Forget about =
all the whys and wherefores" rather than "Forget about all the why's and =
wherefore's". Seems awkward to me, though my personal opinion doesn't =
count much.
I'm curious as to whether you agree with this prohibition--or if you find =
current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as words? =
=20
Larry Beason
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240 HUMB Univ.
of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 17:12:32 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural "words as words"
--e89a8f3ba9e1dacb3204b6ac8284
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Larry,
The rule of thumb I follow is to avoid apostrophes for plurals of words and
numbers, except when they are needed for ease of reading. Hence: "They
issued a long list of do's and don'ts." The plural of "don't" does not need
an apostrophe for easy reading, but the plural of "do" does. Similarly,
"There were two pi's and three omegas in the fraternity names." People would
have difficulty reading about dos and pis, so they get apostrophes.
So, in this case, pragmatism trumps a hard-and-fast rule.
Dick
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> I'm revising a chapter in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to Grammar
> &
> Usage) in terms of how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals.
> As you probably know, the style guides (MLA and APA in particular)
> aren't always in agreement, although most grammar texts prohibit the
> plural apostrophe in cases where they've tolerated them before.
>
> The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used as words'.
> Thus, it seems most grammar books and style guides want us to
> use"Forget about all the whys and wherefores" rather than "Forget
> about all the why's and wherefore's". Seems awkward to me, though my
> personal opinion doesn't count much.
>
> I'm curious as to whether you agree with this prohibition--or if you
> find current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as
words?
>
> Larry Beason
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--e89a8f3ba9e1dacb3204b6ac8284
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Larry,<br><br>The rule of thumb I follow is to avoid apostrophes for plural=
s of words and numbers, except when they are needed for ease of reading. He=
nce: "They issued a long list of do's and don'ts." The pl=
ural of "don't" does not need an apostrophe for easy reading,=
but the plural of "do" does. Similarly, "There were two pi&=
#39;s and three omegas in the fraternity names." People would have dif=
ficulty reading about dos and pis, so they get apostrophes.<br> <br>So, in
this case, pragmatism trumps a hard-and-fast rule.<br><br>Dick<b=
r><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM,
r>Larry=
Beason <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">lbeas=
[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= x #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear Colleagues:<br> <br> I'm revising a chapter
in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to Grammar = & Usage) in terms of
how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals= . =A0As you probably
know, the style guides (MLA and APA in particular) are= n't always in
agreement, although most grammar texts prohibit the plura= l apostrophe in
cases where they've tolerated them before.<br>
<br>
The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used as words'.=
=A0Thus, it seems most grammar books and style guides want us to use"=
Forget about all the whys and wherefores" rather than "Forget abo=
ut all the why's and wherefore's". =A0Seems awkward to me, tho=
ugh my personal opinion doesn't count much.<br>
<br>
I'm curious as to whether you agree with this prohibition--or if you =
=A0find current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as =
words?<br> <br> Larry Beason<br> <br> Larry Beason<br> Associate Professor
& Composition Director<br> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB<br> Univ. of South
Alabama<br> Mobile AL 36688<br> <a href=3D"tel:%28251%29%20460-7861"
value=3D"+12514607861">(251) 460-7861<= /a><br> <br> To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf= ace at:<br>
=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web
site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br>
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--e89a8f3ba9e1dacb3204b6ac8284--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 16:16:58 -0600
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural "words as words"
That's a really good example--the pi's in particular. Not sure if I have =
room given some pagination limits I'm already at, but do you mind if I use =
your example?
larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240 HUMB Univ.
of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> 01/16/12 4:13 PM >>>
Larry,
The rule of thumb I follow is to avoid apostrophes for plurals of words =
and numbers, except when they are needed for ease of reading. Hence: "They
issued a long list of do's and don'ts." The plural of "don't" does not =
need an apostrophe for easy reading, but the plural of "do" does. Similarly,
"There were two pi's and three omegas in the fraternity names." People would
have difficulty reading about dos and pis, so they get apostrophes.
So, in this case, pragmatism trumps a hard-and-fast rule.
Dick
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> =
wrote:
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> I'm revising a chapter in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to Grammar
> &
> Usage) in terms of how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals.
> =
As
> you probably know, the style guides (MLA and APA in particular) aren't
> always in agreement, although most grammar texts prohibit the plural
> apostrophe in cases where they've tolerated them before.
>
> The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used as words'. =
Thus,
> it seems most grammar books and style guides want us to use"Forget
> about all the whys and wherefores" rather than "Forget about all the
> why's and wherefore's". Seems awkward to me, though my personal
> opinion doesn't count much.
>
> I'm curious as to whether you agree with this prohibition--or if you
> =
find
> current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as =
words?
>
> Larry Beason
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web =
interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 18:07:37 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: plural "words as words"
--e89a8f3ba9e1da91f604b6ad4774
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
No problem at all.
Dick
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> That's a really good example--the pi's in particular. Not sure if I
> have room given some pagination limits I'm already at, but do you mind
> if I use your example?
>
> larry
>
> Larry Beason
> Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
> Univ. of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688
> (251) 460-7861
> >>> Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> 01/16/12 4:13 PM >>>
> Larry,
>
> The rule of thumb I follow is to avoid apostrophes for plurals of
> words and numbers, except when they are needed for ease of reading.
> Hence: "They issued a long list of do's and don'ts." The plural of
> "don't" does not need an apostrophe for easy reading, but the plural
> of "do" does. Similarly, "There were two pi's and three omegas in the
> fraternity names." People would have difficulty reading about dos and pis,
so they get apostrophes.
>
> So, in this case, pragmatism trumps a hard-and-fast rule.
>
> Dick
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Dear Colleagues:
> >
> > I'm revising a chapter in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to
> > Grammar &
> > Usage) in terms of how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals.
> As
> > you probably know, the style guides (MLA and APA in particular)
> > aren't always in agreement, although most grammar texts prohibit the
> > plural apostrophe in cases where they've tolerated them before.
> >
> > The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used as words'.
> Thus,
> > it seems most grammar books and style guides want us to use"Forget
> > about all the whys and wherefores" rather than "Forget about all the
> > why's and wherefore's". Seems awkward to me, though my personal
> > opinion doesn't count much.
> >
> > I'm curious as to whether you agree with this prohibition--or if you
> find
> > current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as
words?
> >
> > Larry Beason
> >
> > Larry Beason
> > Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240
> > HUMB Univ. of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688
> > (251) 460-7861
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> > at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
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>
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>
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--e89a8f3ba9e1da91f604b6ad4774
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No problem at all.<br><br>Dick<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Ja=
n 16, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Larry Beason <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto=
:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
solid;padding-left:1ex"> That's a really good example--the pi's in
particular. =A0Not sure i= f I have room given some pagination limits
I'm already at, but do you m= ind if I use your example?<br> <br>
larry<br> <div class=3D"im"><br> Larry Beason<br> Associate Professor &
Composition Director<br> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB<br> Univ. of South
Alabama<br> Mobile AL 36688<br> <a href=3D"tel:%28251%29%20460-7861"
value=3D"+12514607861">(251) 460-7861<= /a><br> </div>>>> Dick Veit
<<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">dick=
[log in to unmask]</a>> 01/16/12 4:13 PM >>><br> <div
class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">Larry,<br> <br> The rule of thumb I
follow is to avoid apostrophes for plurals of words and= <br> numbers,
except when they are needed for ease of reading. Hence: "They= <br>
issued a long list of do's and don'ts." The plural of "do=
n't" does not need<br> an apostrophe for easy reading, but the
plural of "do" does. Simi= larly,<br> "There were two
pi's and three omegas in the fraternity names.&quo= t; People<br> would
have difficulty reading about dos and pis, so they get apostrophes.<b=
r>
<br>
So, in this case, pragmatism trumps a hard-and-fast rule.<br> <br> Dick<br>
<br> <br> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Larry Beason <<a
href=3D"mailto:lbeason= @usouthal.edu">[log in to unmask]</a>>
wrote:<br> <br> > Dear Colleagues:<br> ><br> > I'm revising a
chapter in a grammar book (McGraw-Hill Guide to Gra= mmar &<br> >
Usage) in terms of how the apostrophe is used to form certain plurals.=
=A0As<br> > you probably know, the style guides (MLA and APA in
particular) aren&#= 39;t<br> > always in agreement, although most grammar
texts prohibit the plural<b=
r>
> apostrophe in cases where they've tolerated them before.<br>
><br> > The prohibition that most bothers me is with 'words used
as words&= #39;. =A0Thus,<br> > it seems most grammar books and style
guides want us to use"Forge= t about<br> > all the whys and
wherefores" rather than "Forget about all t= he why's and<br>
> wherefore's". =A0Seems awkward to me, though my personal opin=
ion doesn't<br> > count much.<br> ><br> > I'm curious as to
whether you agree with this prohibition--or if y= ou =A0find<br> >
current reference texts that allow an apostrohe with words used as wor=
ds?<br> ><br> > Larry Beason<br> ><br> > Larry Beason<br> >
Associate Professor & Composition Director<br> > Dept. of English,
240 HUMB<br> > Univ. of South Alabama<br> > Mobile AL 36688<br> >
<a href=3D"tel:%28251%29%20460-7861" value=3D"+12514607861">(251) 460-=
7861</a><br> ><br> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web i= nterface<br> > at:<br> > =A0 =A0 <a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> ><br> > Visit
ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://ateg.org/</a><br> ><br> <br> To join or leave this LISTSERV
list, please visit the list's web interf= ace at:<br>
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and select "Join or leave the list"<br> <br> Visit ATEG's web
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>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
<br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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--e89a8f3ba9e1da91f604b6ad4774--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 10 Jan 2012 to 16 Jan 2012 (#2012-10)
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